Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 25

Thread: Determing Hero Troop Training Times at every level

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Eating a cat
    Posts
    2,259

    Default Determing Hero Troop Training Times at every level

    *DISCLAIMER*

    In order to be able to use this guide you need a scientific calculater that is capable of calculating logrithims. The math really isnt that complicated just follow my steps.

    Here is a spread sheet that is great in terms of planning out a city http://miramar4.com/training.php this spread sheet doesnt tell you what attack level you need per unit time, so the following is still realitivly useful.

    IVE BEEN TOLD THAT SOME PEOPLE'S BROWSERS ARE IDENTIFYING VIRUS' ON THIS SITE, USE AT OWN RISK

    *Note* I did not make the spread sheet it was refered to me

    So there are lots of guides on this forum site listing what hero attack is needed in order to be able to make instant troops. These levels are listed below, the first column is the hero attack needed without Excalibur, and the second column is the hero attack needed with Excalibur applied:

    warrior 432 / 346
    worker 571 / 457
    scout 709 / 568
    pike 790 / 632
    sword 871 / 697
    arch 959 / 768
    cavs 1030 / 824
    porter 1168 / 935
    cats 1249 /1000
    ballista 1388 / 1111
    rams 1468 / 1175
    pult 1526 / 1221

    These attack levels are common knowledge throughout evony, but what isn’t known is what hero attack is needed to obtain a certain training time. For example Player X wants to know what hero attack is needed in order to be able to make 1 second scouts. Player X wants this information so that he can predict when he should start to remodel his cities and increase his population.

    What we need to be able to calculate what hero level is needed for each troop time is the basic equation for troop building.

    This equation is: time=(base buildtime)(.9^σ)(.995^hero lvl) I will call this eqn#1

    Where: σ=the level of military science or metal casting, whichever one is relevant

    So in order to calculate training times we need to know the following information: Base buildtimes, Military science/Metal casting tech levels, and the hero level.

    So its logical that in order to find what hero attack is needed to obtain a certain time we need: Base buildtimes, Military science/Metal casting tech levels, and the time desired.

    We can manipulate eqn#1 using logrithims and get this as the basic equation:

    ln[(time+1/base bt)/.9^σ]/ln (.995)=hero lvl I will call this eqn#2

    Again where: σ=the level of military science or metal casting, whichever one is relevant

    *note* the time+1 is necessary so that when eqn#2 spits out the hero level needed you will get the level that pertains to the beginning of that time range rather than the end of the time range

    So now we have the equation, you know what time you want the equation to spit out, you know what your Military Science / Metal casting tech level is, what you don’t know is the list of basic buildtimes. I found them and posted them below:

    The list of basic buildtimes for each unit are:

    warrior - 25
    worker - 50
    scout - 100
    pike - 150
    sword - 225
    arch - 350
    cav - 500
    cat - 1500

    balli - 3000
    ram - 4500
    pult - 6000


    The ones in blue are the ones that need military science techs
    The ones in orange are the ones that need metal casting techs

    So now we have all the variables so I will provide an example, using Player X, who wants to know what hero attack is needed so that he can make 1 second scouts, he knows that he has level 10 military science, and using the buildtime chart he knows that scouts have a basic buildtime of 100, so he puts these numbers into eqn#2

    ln[(time+1/base bt)/.9^σ]/ln (.995)=hero lvl with Player X becomes

    ln[(2/100)/.9^10]/ln(.995)=hero lvl

    and the hero attack that comes out is 570. So he knows that with a 570 attack hero his scouts will go from taking 2 secs to make to taking 1 second to make. Any attack less then 570 he will have a scout building time of more then 1 second.

    Part 2 With Excalibur taken into account

    Lets say that Player X has an Excalibur that he wants to apply to the hero, but he wants to wait until applying it will give him 1 second scouts.

    We know that Excalibur raises hero attack by 25%, so we can introduce that to eqn#2 by multiplying the hero attack level by 1.25.

    so it looks like this: ln[(time+1/base bt)/.9^σ]/ln (.995)=(hero lvl)(1.25)

    then we divide both sides by 1.25 to get hero attack level by itself and we get

    (ln[(time+1/base bt)/.9^σ]/ln (.995))/1.25=hero lvl this is eqn#3

    Using Player X again, with his desired time of 1 sec scouts, his military science being level 10, and knowing from the chart that scouts basetime is 100, we put the numbers into eqn#3 like:

    (ln[(2/100)/.9^10]/ln(.995))/1.25=hero lvl

    Hero attack level is 456

    And now Player X knows that when his hero gets to 456 he should apply Excalibur in order to get 1 sec scouts. If he applies it anytime before 456 attack he will have a scout building time greater than 1 sec.

    Credit to Diamondragan for his work found here: http://bbs.evony.com/showthread.php?t=88137
    Last edited by Lucas101; 03-21-2011 at 08:44 AM. Reason: Trying to fix sp. errors

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Eating a cat
    Posts
    2,259

    Default

    So I've searched forums for the equation expalining buildtime of wall defenses, but haven't been able to find it. However, it is obvious that wall d, like the construction and troop building equations, is dependent on the basetime being affected be the relevant hero level, in this case politics, and the appropriate tech level, in this case construction. So the equation that will be used is

    (Base time x 0.995^Politics) x 0.9^Construction level=time

    The basetimes were unknown, or at least unpublished but using the list on instant wall d levels with lvl 10 construction, it is possible to determine them by changing the equation to look like this.

    Base time = [(1/0.9^10)/ 0.995^Politics of instant unit]

    Unit hero lvl for instant builds (without W.O.N / With W.O.N)
    Traps 607 / 486
    Abatis 745 / 596
    Towers 826 / 661
    Logs 965 / 772
    Trebs 1066 / 853

    After some basic substitution the numbers below are derived as the base build times (in seconds) of each separate wall defense.

    Unit basetime
    Traps 60
    Abaits 120
    Towers 180
    Logs 360
    Trebs 600

    So again using logarithms it becomes apparent that the equation for determining hero politics level for x time is:

    ln[(time+1/base bt)/.9^σ]/ln (.995)=hero lvl
    where σ is the level of construction

    So for an example, Player A wants to know what hero politics level he needs to make build time for traps 2 secs, he has lvl 9 construction.

    So time=2+1,
    basetime=60, σ=9, put the numbers into the equation like below

    ln[(2+1/60)/.9^9]/ln (.995)=hero lvl
    408=hero level

    With wealth of nations applied As shown above with the Excalibur condition the same must be done with the wall d equation, so the wall d equation for a hero with Wealth of Nations applied is:

    (ln[(time+1/base bt)/.9^σ]/ln (.995))/1.25=hero lvl

    So using the above example for 2 sec traps and level 9 construction, and a pol hero with wealth of nations applied we get:

    (ln[(2+1/60)/.9^9]/ln (.995))/1.25=hero lvl

    327 is the politics hero level needed for 2 second traps with lvl 9 construction and wealth of nations applied.

    Many will think this guide to be useless, but it is valuable to be able to know when you should be changing barracks to cottages, and these models allow the player to be able to accurately predict a time frame when s/he should start to remodel their cities. Furthermore these models can also predict when a hero is high enough that it no longer needs the academy bonus to produce instant troops. This means that you can have 10k more pop per production que in a scout or other STRICTLY unit building city, that when not needed you can store amongst the alliance members.

    Also when used with this tool http://evonypedia.com/Hero_Experience_Calculator this guide is very effective in terms of figuring out how much experiance to stockpile on a hero before holywatering it to get a certain buildtime of wall d units.

    Props to Aegless.OG for his guide which can be found here http://bbs.evony.com/showthread.php?t=114222

    To avoid future headaches props to Prodigy the 5 for his instant with buffs levels found here http://bbs.evony.com/showthread.php?t=152292
    This is also an excellent guide that covers all the basics so I would strongly recomend reading it.
    Last edited by Lucas101; 04-07-2011 at 02:36 AM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Eating a cat
    Posts
    2,259

    Default

    K so after finally getting a huge pol hero I was very dissapointed that the incorrect time was shown for lvlingup/lvling down buildings,so being thebored geek that I am I decided to finally finish another portion of this guide that being the buildtimes of town units affected by the politics of the mayor.

    So first we start with the equation of the politics level of the mayor affecting the buildtime of townunits. This equation is:
    time=(Basetimex0.995^PoliticsLevel)x0.9^Constructi on level which will be refered to as equation 1

    using, suprise, properties of logirithms this equation can once again be changed to show what hero politics level is needed to acheive z time

    time=Basetimex0.995^PoliticsLevelx0.9^Construction level

    time/basetime=.995^PLx.9^CL

    (time/basetime)/.9^CL=.995^PL

    ln((time+1/basetime)/.9^CL)/ln.995=PL this will be refered to as equation 2

    Again the time+1 is incorperated into equation 2 so that you get the begining of the time incriment rather then the end of it.

    Thanks to Satan all the buildtimes are known and listed here: http://bbs.evony.com/showthread.php?t=83430 and its post number 4. I'm not gonna repost every townunit because it is alot of informtion and this guide is cluttered as it is. Just remember that for the formula to work properly you must convert all times into seconds.

    I will however repost resource feilds of iron and lumber, they are as follows:

    Ironmine/SawillLevel
    time (in seconds)
    190/45
    2180/90
    3360/180
    4720/360
    51440/720
    62880/1440
    75760/2880
    811520/5760
    923040/11520
    1046080/23040

    I'm sure that 99% of readers can see the way that the numbers increase on a basic expodential scale as the level increase by one. This rule applies for all town units.

    So for a quick example lets say that player Pskonejott wants to know at what level does he need his pol to be at so that he can attain instant lvl 10 sawmills with full techs.

    ln((0+1/23040)/.9^10)/ln.995=PL

    In this case the number 1794 pops out which is suprisingy low. Can anyone get a hold of Bob with his 2k pol and verify?

    The problem with the way that the heroes politics level influences the buildtime of townunits is that after a certai level it makes sense to cease the leveling of the big politics hero, and instead begin to level a diffrent one. This is because of the relationship of the pol hero to townunits being expresed as a logarthmic function, and thus decreases in town unit build time mean a greater amount of politics must be gained in order to ge to the next time incriment. This combined with a higher amount of experiance needed to get to the next experiance level means that at a certain point it becomes very inefficent to level up a pol hero, and instead a player should focus on devolping a second politics hero. What this level actually is, is not known, but can be calculated, that will be my next post, but wont be done for a while.

    Sorry for typing in this section espically, my laptop is lagging or something, i have to retype each word three times it seemes

    Credit to Satan for his thread, linked above.
    Last edited by Lucas101; 05-15-2011 at 08:58 PM.

  4. #4

    Default



    http://bbs.evony.com/showthread.php?t=73243&page=2

    That tables off abit... .

    However the sort a range gives an idea.
    Last edited by Facade Infinite; 01-08-2011 at 01:32 PM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Eating a cat
    Posts
    2,259

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Facade Infinite View Post


    http://bbs.evony.com/showthread.php?t=73243&page=2

    That tables off abit... .

    However the sort a range gives an idea.
    yeah lower units are a bit off, but table is great nonetheless, makes my eqn look bad , kinda wish i had found this chart couple months back, would still have some hair left lol + rep

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Eating a cat
    Posts
    2,259

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Beast View Post
    Definite Rep.
    Now, do u have any idea what the Poly points numbers are for, instant:

    Lv.9 Barracks

    Lv.9 Academy

    Lv.10 Walls

    etc?
    Finished ..........
    Last edited by Lucas101; 06-12-2011 at 11:09 AM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Eating a cat
    Posts
    2,259

    Default

    *Reserved for buildtime of townunits*

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    31

    Default

    +rep. Very good information. Thank you. I bet that took a while to create :O
    Incubus #1
    Server ss39

  9. #9

    Default

    Thanks, very good information. Glad to see you are working so hard to make my life easier.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    325

    Default

    Lucas101, do you think you could put those formulas into a usuable spreadsheet? Add drop down boxes for the various units, then have a blank field for attribute level and the resulting build time, such that entering the attribute level would produce the build time or entering the desired build time would result in the needed attribute? I think I know someone else that can do it, but figured since this your work I would bring the idea up to you first.

    Sig by Morgan le Fay
    "War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it, the crueler it is the sooner it will be over."
    --William Tecumseh Sherman--

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •