Cultural Symbols

So I had a random thought today. It had to do with fire. It has certain, obvious effects, but our perception of it seems to extend much beyond those:

On the one hand, fire is widely regarded as a source of comfort, life, and enlightenment. After all, what did Prometheus steal from the Gods? Fire. What did people used to invite travellers to sit by when they were extening hospitality? Their fire. What was the elusive life-bringing goal of a Jack London character? A fire. It allows us to see, both literally and often figuratively, and the sun (once regarded as the biggest ball of fire there ever was, and though we should know better now our subconcious still seemsto hold on to this,) is seen as the epitome of that concept.

On the other hand...

Many people say that being burned alive is one of the worst ways to die. Fire is used as one of the ultimate weapons; it caused more damage to Japan in a few short years than both nuclear bombs combined, and shortly after that war was banned internationally as a weapon, because of the supposedly inumane horror of it. Hell, recently, is perceived as being filled with fire, (though admittedly it used to be considered the coldest place in the world.)

So why do we have such contradictory thoughts about something this basic? Is it merely a matter of distance? Or is it because we as humans are a naturally confused people? Or maybe we realize that everything tends to be a double-edged sword, both friend and foe?

I'd like this discussed, but feel free to bring up any other symbols that have pervaded our culture, minds, and literature to become something much larger than they should be.

It's because it can be used both as a help and as a weapon. Like darkness, I guess. Darkness can be seen as a time of wonder, as in the case of stargazing and romance. But, no one wants to be blind, or stuck somewhere where there's no light.

the double edged sword is even larger then its name sake and is use do describe anything that could be harmful or helpful depending on how you wield it.
fire is something that was all important an age ago and a true "double edged sword" it is and was respected as. i like that its duel nature teaches that we need balance in our lives, too little fire and your life is miserable, too much and your worse off then before you had any. moderation and self regulation are not things i've seen taught in recent years. the fables and the stories that bring it up as a desired moral value have mostly fallen by the way side, and every one is always screaming more more more. enough is never enough, where does it all end? the glut of capitlizem is chocking its self because no one now a days learns temperance/ moderation/ self-regulation.

sad story.

Fire is both alluring and frightening at the same time. It has been suggested that the harnessing of fire was a major step in the evolution of human civilization as it gave us the ability to cook and eat meat and provide light in the night. The Zoroastrians worshipped fire which rose from the ground (gas leakage from oil reserves) and that is seen as the precursor to the mono-theistic God of the three major religions of today. Fire can cleanse and purify, such as in the case of smelting pure metals such as iron, gold and silver. Fire can revive and regenerate, such as the new growth and germination which follows a fire, especially in an environment that has evolved to cope with fires, such as here in Australia. (Many native Australian plants only germinate well after a bush fire or being treated with smoke infused water.)

A large fire is a threat to life and can destroy everything that we think we own. Burns are among the most painful wounds we can receive and are difficult to treat. It has also been used as a weapon of war, probably since humans started fighting each other, and is still used as such today. Sorry OP but I disagree with you that fire was banned as a weapon after WWII as Napalm was used in Vietnam and is still available to most modern armies as far as I know. It could also be said that a bullet or artillery round harnesses a small controlled fire to operate (gun powder burns quickly in a confined space, causing heat, which increases the air pressure in the confined space, which propels the projectile forward from the barrel). Most of our modern-day weapon delivery systems rely on some form of combustion as well, from internal combustion engines to rocket propulsion.

Anyway, fire can be fascinating. We can sit and stare into the fire at night and it can keep us entertained or create a trance-like state where our thoughts are free to wander and ideas explored in depth. Staring into a fire is staring into the heart of a small nuclear reaction. The heat we feel is radiation caused by the energy that is being released (energy = electrons) in that reaction.

Fire is also one of the four elemental forces that have been described and worshipped since early civilization (earth, air, fire and water). All four elements are seen as being vital in creating and sustaining life and at the same time, being capable of wreaking terrible destruction upon life. The elemental forces are not seen as being either good or evil, or perhaps are more often seen as encompassing both. I prefer to think of them as basically neutral and it is how we perceive them and the results of their power that we describe as either (good or evil).

We would not be what we are without fire and our ability to learn how to and think of new ways to use it. It will probably continue to be one of the major factors in human development for a long time to come.

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Originally Posted by Fallbreeze

It's because it can be used both as a help and as a weapon. Like darkness, I guess. Darkness can be seen as a time of wonder, as in the case of stargazing and romance. But, no one wants to be blind, or stuck somewhere where there's no light.

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exactly she said it better than anyone else

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Originally Posted by Rodri

Fire is both alluring and frightening at the same time. It has been suggested that the harnessing of fire was a major step in the evolution of human civilization as it gave us the ability to cook and eat meat and provide light in the night. The Zoroastrians worshipped fire which rose from the ground (gas leakage from oil reserves) and that is seen as the precursor to the mono-theistic God of the three major religions of today. Fire can cleanse and purify, such as in the case of smelting pure metals such as iron, gold and silver. Fire can revive and regenerate, such as the new growth and germination which follows a fire, especially in an environment that has evolved to cope with fires, such as here in Australia. (Many native Australian plants only germinate well after a bush fire or being treated with smoke infused water.)

A large fire is a threat to life and can destroy everything that we think we own. Burns are among the most painful wounds we can receive and are difficult to treat. It has also been used as a weapon of war, probably since humans started fighting each other, and is still used as such today. Sorry OP but I disagree with you that fire was banned as a weapon after WWII as Napalm was used in Vietnam and is still available to most modern armies as far as I know. It could also be said that a bullet or artillery round harnesses a small controlled fire to operate (gun powder burns quickly in a confined space, causing heat, which increases the air pressure in the confined space, which propels the projectile forward from the barrel). Most of our modern-day weapon delivery systems rely on some form of combustion as well, from internal combustion engines to rocket propulsion.

Anyway, fire can be fascinating. We can sit and stare into the fire at night and it can keep us entertained or create a trance-like state where our thoughts are free to wander and ideas explored in depth. Staring into a fire is staring into the heart of a small nuclear reaction. The heat we feel is radiation caused by the energy that is being released (energy = electrons) in that reaction.

Fire is also one of the four elemental forces that have been described and worshipped since early civilization (earth, air, fire and water). All four elements are seen as being vital in creating and sustaining life and at the same time, being capable of wreaking terrible destruction upon life. The elemental forces are not seen as being either good or evil, or perhaps are more often seen as encompassing both. I prefer to think of them as basically neutral and it is how we perceive them and the results of their power that we describe as either (good or evil).

We would not be what we are without fire and our ability to learn how to and think of new ways to use it. It will probably continue to be one of the major factors in human development for a long time to come.

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rodri is rite burns are :modedit: but fire is something that is essential god given and if he takes it back we are all :modedit::modedit:

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Originally Posted by Rodri

Fire is both alluring and frightening at the same time. It has been suggested that the harnessing of fire was a major step in the evolution of human civilization as it gave us the ability to cook and eat meat and provide light in the night. The Zoroastrians worshipped fire which rose from the ground (gas leakage from oil reserves) and that is seen as the precursor to the mono-theistic God of the three major religions of today. Fire can cleanse and purify, such as in the case of smelting pure metals such as iron, gold and silver. Fire can revive and regenerate, such as the new growth and germination which follows a fire, especially in an environment that has evolved to cope with fires, such as here in Australia. (Many native Australian plants only germinate well after a bush fire or being treated with smoke infused water.)

A large fire is a threat to life and can destroy everything that we think we own. Burns are among the most painful wounds we can receive and are difficult to treat. It has also been used as a weapon of war, probably since humans started fighting each other, and is still used as such today. Sorry OP but I disagree with you that fire was banned as a weapon after WWII as Napalm was used in Vietnam and is still available to most modern armies as far as I know. It could also be said that a bullet or artillery round harnesses a small controlled fire to operate (gun powder burns quickly in a confined space, causing heat, which increases the air pressure in the confined space, which propels the projectile forward from the barrel). Most of our modern-day weapon delivery systems rely on some form of combustion as well, from internal combustion engines to rocket propulsion.

Anyway, fire can be fascinating. We can sit and stare into the fire at night and it can keep us entertained or create a trance-like state where our thoughts are free to wander and ideas explored in depth. Staring into a fire is staring into the heart of a small nuclear reaction. The heat we feel is radiation caused by the energy that is being released (energy = electrons) in that reaction.

Fire is also one of the four elemental forces that have been described and worshipped since early civilization (earth, air, fire and water). All four elements are seen as being vital in creating and sustaining life and at the same time, being capable of wreaking terrible destruction upon life. The elemental forces are not seen as being either good or evil, or perhaps are more often seen as encompassing both. I prefer to think of them as basically neutral and it is how we perceive them and the results of their power that we describe as either (good or evil).

We would not be what we are without fire and our ability to learn how to and think of new ways to use it. It will probably continue to be one of the major factors in human development for a long time to come.

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the conifer forests on the west coast of the American continent only release their seeds when in an inferno. one of the self regenerating assets of the pine rain forests here. when Mt St Helen's went up in 81 everyone thought it would take decades for the forests to even begin to come back but the next spring there were saplings and now a mere 20 years later you would never know that the volcano had removed her outer robe of vibrant green, there is even growth down in the crater that will eventually erupt again.

flaming rocks can even have duel sides. well perhaps not flaming flaming. but what just occurred to me was that when camping one may heat a cauldron not just with the fire beneath it but with heated stones plucked from within or close to withing the fire. that would be a welcome side to flaming rocks as opposed to the unwelcome sight of magma/ lava being hurled at your village from an "angry mountain"

snakes are worshiped in some regions and seen as the most detestable of pests in others.


i think with all the duplicitous symbols humans have created for their understanding i will heartily agree with you Bree, that we see the duel nature in other things to help us understand the duel nature of our selves.

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Originally Posted by imnothere

the conifer forests on the west coast of the American continent only release their seeds when in an inferno. one of the self regenerating assets of the pine rain forests here. when Mt St Helen's went up in 81 everyone thought it would take decades for the forests to even begin to come back but the next spring there were saplings and now a mere 20 years later you would never know that the volcano had removed her outer robe of vibrant green, there is even growth down in the crater that will eventually erupt again.

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I actally thought of that earlier today as well, or something like it. Fire as a cleansing force, not just making life but purifying it, or baptizing it, if you'll allow someone like me to use that term. ("Baptism by fire" is a phrase I've heard once or twice before...)

You're right about the napalm thing in Vietnam, Rodri. My mental timeline was a little messed up last night, I guess. Anyway, to get back for that, :p I'll have to call you out on the energy = electrons thing. We aren't heated by electrons, rather, it's a chemical reaction in which atoms change from high potential-energy molecules to low potential-energy ones, releasing the stored energy, which excites the electrons, releasing photons, really, which contributes both heat and pretty colors.

But anyway, don't want this conversation to derail the thread, do we? (Though if you really want to keep talking I'll gladly take it somewhere else.)

Now, I find it interesting that the idea of our own dual-natured selves (In the words of John Gardner's Grendel, "Balance is all,) evidenced by the fire example, was zeroed in on... Now I want to try to figure out if we really do see almost everything this way.

Like...

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Originally Posted by Fallbreeze

Like darkness, I guess. Darkness can be seen as a time of wonder, as in the case of stargazing and romance. But, no one wants to be blind, or stuck somewhere where there's no light.

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I always thought that darkness, in a way, is our life without barriers. After all, people can do a lot more with the help of darkness than they would otherwise: buglaries, trysts, killings... But on the other hand, those same barriers that you remove to find freedom also let in the monsters and bogeymen. :oops:

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Originally Posted by imnothere

the glut of capitlizem is chocking its self because no one now a days learns temperance/ moderation/ self-regulation.

sad story.

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That's... something I'd never had thought to bring into this conversation. But it's a good point. Because we try to moderate capitalism already, don't we? After all, anyone who knows economics will tell you that we don't have a "true" free market economy. There's plenty of regulation, though I can't say it's all the right kind...

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Originally Posted by imnothere

snakes are worshiped in some regions and seen as the most detestable of pests in others.

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Though I'm not even sure it comes down to regions. Within the people who like snakes, at least, one person will generally tell you that they combine beauty and deadliness. While the people who don't kind of take the Indiana Jones-esque fear of them and nothing else, a very polarized view. Does this second one break the rule or is it simply an exception? :confused:

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Originally Posted by imnothere

i think with all the duplicitous symbols humans have created for their understanding i will heartily agree with you Bree, that we see the duel nature in other things to help us understand the duel nature of our selves.

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Well there you go, well put.

I think we do, Bree. In fact, there would be few items I could think of that didn't have something we could think of as a 'plus and minus' like that.

Think of electricity. We use it everyday, to power just about everything. We also use it to see with (and thank everything for the invention of the lightbulb!), which keeps us from harming ourselves. We also use it to save lives with. (Defib paddles, anyone? :D ) Flip side, none of us wants to be struck by lightning. We tell kids not to put metallic objects in live plugs. Plus, we use it for killing people (ie, the electric chair).

The snake is a good example. I don't think fear and worship are mutually exclusive here.

The snake is very small creature that only weighs a few pounds. Yet, it can bite something HUGE and that creature will die from the venom. Ancient peoples may not have been aware of the properties of venom. All they knew is that this very small creature had a great power within it. This made anyone sane rightfully fear the snake. They fear it because they respect the power within it. That respect might lead to an idolization of this small creature with great power.

It is feared because it's power is respected.
It's power is respected which can be considered worship, and may lead to actual idolization.


So, the snake is feared AND worshipped.
Both happen because of respect for it's inner power.

Well, I think I thought of something for the major theme. Bats!

Bats are normally not the bloodsucking creatures we know them to be. Has anyone seen one morph into a vampire? No. But, that is what comes to mind when I first think of a bat. We've had too many supernatural writers equate bats with horror. They're mainly fruit and insect eaters, and even the varieties that do ingest blood, do not do so in even remotely that large of quantity. The worst things a bat can do is make guano, and possibly infectious diseases.

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Originally Posted by Fallbreeze

Well, I think I thought of something for the major theme. Bats!

Bats are normally not the bloodsucking creatures we know them to be. Has anyone seen one morph into a vampire? No. But, that is what comes to mind when I first think of a bat. We've had too many supernatural writers equate bats with horror. They're mainly fruit and insect eaters, and even the varieties that do ingest blood, do not do so in even remotely that large of quantity. The worst things a bat can do is make guano, and possibly infectious diseases.

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*ahem* actually Guano is an expensive commodity that people pay *giggle* cra i cant say that word can i... any way people pay a lot for it and dont even realize thats what they are buying. high end fertilizers rich in nitrates get their lovely white pearls of nitrates from..... *evil grin* guano

not my first pick of a job though, harvesting it i mean

I was trying for a bit of humor there. I know guano is a very sought after fertilizer. Just not sure an amateur cave spelunker appreciates scraping it off of his head or boots. :)

meh just hoes your boots off into the garden, use "bovine pie" shampoo to get out the worst of the chunks and rinse that into the flower bed too. you'll have a "good time" and grow a great garden

You know what they get the phosphates in colas from, right? :)

...and yet, the "Swoosh" and red circle are cultural icons. Same for the competition's yin/yang.

Makes me appreciate Snapple that much more. "Made from the best stuff on earth" is actually a pretty compelling slogan in that light.