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I just got passed this link where a scientist admits global warming is a scam.
Personally even after reading it i reserve my judgement. I still beilive in Global warming, but i want to know your views and thoughts after you read it.
http://redwhitebluenews.com/?p=7670
Global Warming is both real and a scam.
As many know throughout history (mostly prehistory), our planet has undergone periods of warming up and then cooling down, warming up and then cooling down. The period between Ice Ages, where the Earth's temperature rises, the time period we are in now, is called the Holocene. So, whether or not we humans were here, the Earth's temperature would rise.
However, we are indeed speeding up the process. We are simply bring another Ice Age closer, faster, but not by much.
Global warming is still a scam because of the money put into it, as that scientist in your article pointed out. No matter what we do, we cannot stop GW, so why donate money for the effort..?
The only thing we can do is lessen our effect on it, which can be done with clean energy, etc.
So.. yeah. If you want me to go into further detail explaining why the Earth goes through periods of warming up and cooling down I can, it's very interesting.. but you'd get a tl:dr post.
It's not a scam, we just don't really know what's going on.
Will the sea level rise and drown 2 billion people or will we have a reinactment of 'The Day After Tomorrow'? Nobody knows, because we're just stupid mammals pretending to be intelligent.
Are humans causing climate change by burning fossil fuels or is the documented temperature and weather change just a part of the Earth's natural cycle, i.e. the Earth's period. Nobody knows.
But it's undeniable that the climate has been and is changing. Anyone who tries to argue otherwise is either lying or is just ignorant and has not looked at pictures showing the changes on Mt. Kilimanjaro or the change documented by reputable sources like NOAA and all of the nations that have permanent outposts in Antarctica that show a rise of ~6 celcius over the just the past 50 years.
Edit: In reply to SbD's post, anyone profiting off the fear of global warming/climate change IS scamming people. But the idea of climate change itself is not a scam. But SbD, we do not know for certain that humans are speeding up anything. Really, we just don't know. Anybody who says for certain that humans are is drinking the same kool-aid as the people who say nothing is happening and everything is cool because Jesus is going to come back soon and lead an army of Christans against Satan.
I agree with Raster/SbD^ and I have nothing more to add other than to say that article was posted on Oct 10,2010...
I've been into this for a while, and i do think its a scam.
I agree completely with sickbydefinition... The earth has undergone hundreds of changes before we inhabited it, of course, we may be speeding up the process, but it would be happening anyway whether or not we are on the planet.
This, however, does not mean we can simply burn fuel because we aren't necessarily causing any severe damage, its still bad what we're doing to the planet....
If one looks at the amount of greenhouse gases emitted naturally, in comparison to what we produce, it is a tiny, almost insignificant percentage, its almost vain of us to think we are making all these differences ;)
A lot of scientists actually agree with this, and have actually spoken about it, but are often shunned as of course, who would want to disprove this massive worldwide money making scheme.. hmm?
Yup I'm with the rest of the gang. The Earth throughout it's history has gone through periods of warmth and then temperatures would drop. There wasn't just one Ice Age, there have been dozens.
I remember reading somewhere London was once home to the big game of the Serengeti.
Well, you're wrong. The Earth's climate is visibly changing before our eyes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Furrr
The Earth has gone through infinity changes before "we" inhabited it. The reason people like Al Gore and all them cry out that humans are wrecking the Earth is because there is a documented increase in the global temperature since we started burning large amounts of coal/oil/natural gases since the Industrial Revolution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Furrr
Everything in this statement is 100% unverifiable. Do you have a model Earth that never evolved humans that you run tests on? We may not at all be speeding up anything. It could be entirely natural. We just don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Furrr
You mean cutting down all the forest that produce oxygen? Or do you mean building cities which create heat islands? Or covering the globe in concrete which reduces evapotranspiration? What are we doing to the planet? You're so vague, what the hell are you talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Furrr
What do you mean by greenhouse gases? Water vapor? Carbon Monoxide? Nitrogen oxide? Neon? Methane? Krypton? Are you referring to cow farts and volcanoes? The greenhouse effect, which relies on greenhouse gases is vital to existence of life on Earth. Without this layer protecting the globe life as we know it would not exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Furrr
Based on what you've said so far, that's totally credible. And your sources don't lie....Quote:
Originally Posted by Furrr
Oh? You mean like electric cars and wind power and solar panels? Guess what? That's because our energy sources are limited. If we use them all up without finding alternative sources of energy a gallon of gasoline will be $100 USD and our global economy will collapse and we'll all be standing around with our thumbs up our butts saying "Well we shouldn't have shunned those scientists who were saying that climate change was a scam because..." peak oil and globalization do consider climate change and are fearful of it but the driving reason behind reducing our fossil fuel dependence is because they will run out and all sorts of crazy crap is going to happen and that would suck hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Furrr
Blah blah blah. I hate stupid people.
ok.
You don't have to be a scientist to figure out that chopping down forrests, which capture CO2 and then burning fossil fuels, which produces CO2 is not good for any of us. The problem is that the evidence is just not there that we are in a period of global warming due to human activity. The scientists know this and they have said in the past that if we wait until the evidence is clearly there it will be too late to do anything about it. So they doctored up some temperature records and presented them as evidence and it's not really evidence because the records are a small sample that shows an upward curve but if you look at all records, they actually show the planet coming out of a period of below average temperatures and back towards the norm.
Now the other thing they did was to show daytime maximum temperatures, which is not good methodology for measuring global warming due to greenhouse gasses. If you really want to know if tempratures are rising overall, you need to look at nighttime minimum temperatures and see if there is an upward trend there. After all, greenhouse gasses are said to trap heat in the upper atmosphere and reflect it back onto the planet so logically that trapped heat would be easier to measure at night rather than during the day when season and direct sunlight have the most affect on maximum temperatures.
It's all very bad science as far as I can see and Al Gore is not even a scientist. He is a buisnessman who happened to start the first carbon credit trading exchange (since failed due to lack of activity). I don't know if Al's motivation was concern for the planet or profit but I watched his film, thought about it and what I already knew about greenhouse effect and decided it was an over-emotive unscientific piece of work.
I myself would like to see an end to the oil age and the coal age but I remain sceptical that man-made climate change is real, based on the evidence I have seen.
Raster, energy is contained in every atom and is pumped at us in huge amounts every day from our nearest star. It really could be free.
Rodri ( serious question) isn't the problem with solar not capturing but storing the energy in large enough quantities?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodri
I must say Off Topic has for once given me hope and joy. It is good to see a majority recognizing global warming as scientific fact, whether man-affected and/or natural. Scientific literacy is much higher here than at highschool. And for this accomplishment I offer you all rep. Praise be to science!
Global warming is scientific fact and has occurred in the past. Believing otherwise should give you a reserved spot in the eugenics waiting line. The ignorant deserve not to propagate and spread like a virus.
that isn't an isolated even skirQuote:
Originally Posted by Skirata
I for one am surprised that pretty much everyone is in agreement that it is a natural occurrence (the heating and cooling of earth) but we are speeding up the process and how much we are also unsure due to nothing to compare too.
I for one have been skeptical of global warming to start with.
Are you in disagreement?Quote:
Originally Posted by cstrauz
I'd be interested if anyone can bring forth compelling evidence that global warming is not a regular and natural occurrence in Earth's life cycle.
As for man-made global warming, I think I was once told a figure of something like modern day human activity being capable of raising Earth's global temperature 1 degree (I forget whether it was C or F, but probably C as I think it came from a British study) every 100 years, which doesn't sound entirely unreasonable to me.
If the above figure was true, then that would stand to suggest we are having an impact on Earth, just not a very extreme one.
I do think we are being irresponsible with Earth, even if ever so slightly. Besides aforementioned examples from previous members, huge garbage patches full of undegradable plastics floating through our oceans are an indication of us trashing up the planet, even if it's not an issue that much concerns us (though some people that eat fish that eat plastic from the garbage patches suffer from some some effects of poisoning or health issues or another that I can't remember, which sucks for them).
But, I would say even if we were screwing up Earth, the changes would make the delicate creatures of Earth (including mankind) suffer far before Earth itself suffered anything but entirely negligible effects it could heal from in a relatively (as far as Earth is concerned) short time.
All in all I doubt we could do anything to Earth to seriously harm it, except possibly mass nuclear detonations over the world, but I doubt even that would ruin Earth (but might take a few centuries or millenia to regenerate).
I think the bigger issues behind the entire global warming spectacle is:
1. Our heavy dependence on finite resources (coal, oil, yada yada).
2. Even the most minute changes to the Earth from our over-excessive indulgence having large effects on the Goldilocks life on it that needs everything *just* right to survive.
Or something along those lines.
Me and Rasterbee made two completely opposite points.Quote:
Originally Posted by eric0095
I agreed with the better parts of each of your respective statements :DQuote:
Originally Posted by SickbyDefinition
I'll probably get back to this again when I'm not falling asleep on my keyboard. Global warming IS a natural cycle, how ever it has been documented and recorded (cant find the graphs again) that since the usual peak of the warming part, instead of decreasing like it's usual it continues, no drop like usual. In my opinion it is worst then previous encounters with the warming, but it isn't so severe that the media did/does make, I'm pretty sure they said we would be underwater right now. DONT disconcern the green crap though just because of this.... The sham is collecting money for it, but there is truth behind some of the info, I suggest some of it be heeded...
It is weird how you choose to agree with side two pretty opposite arguments :pQuote:
Originally Posted by eric0095
I think the only people who claim that are either grossly mis(or un)informed/gullible/melodramatic people (see end of the world conspirators), or anti-global warming theory trolls trying to undermine the global warming theory's credibility from the inside.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reasoner
A paradox :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Reasoner
hmmm, this has given me a great idea for a sig...
I get where you're coming from. It's impossible to know exactly how fast the Earth would be heating up right now if we had never been here or changed the climate (or not...).Quote:
Originally Posted by rasterbee
But, the fact that more carbon dioxide is being released into the air, because of us, is undeniable. The fact that this gas effects our atmosphere is undeniable. The fact that less oxygen is released due to humans felling countless trees yearly without planting enough to replace them is undeniable. The fact that chemical waste, from us, effects ecosystems everywhere, often killing particular creatures that also emit oxygen or carbon dioxide, is undeniable.
So, however minute or large our contribution to the global temperature increase is, it's still there.
At least, that's what I believe. My logic tells me there's absolutely no way we have no effect on the temperature rise (making it rise faster).
I'm all for free energy, Rodri. Also nice to see you again. I would like to see massive solar panels surrounding the moon or maybe we could create our own solar panel covered celestial object from materials mined from Mars and place it in orbit around the Earth. Or cold fusion, let's crack that nut.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodri
The most reliable way of documenting past climate change is by analyzing the chemical make up of water taken from ice core samples from the poles of the Earth. Giant drills dig into ice that has been in a frozen state for hundreds of thousands of years, pull up a sample and look at what is in it. Unfortunately the farthest back in time we've been able to accurately see is something like 800,000 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reasoner
Even though everyone says we totally disagree, we really don't. We just expressed it a little differently. We both are concerned about the same things and scared and worried and probably choose to ignore it most of the time except for situations like this where we feel the need to puff up our chests and yell at people for thinking stupid things about stuff they don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by SickbyDefinition
You know what's funny is that exposed rocks are carbon sinks. They capture CO2 by weathering and eroding, so some of the way way out there extremists claim that we can cut down as many trees as we want and burn as much fossil fuel as we want and an increase in temperature will balance out this change in our atmosphere for us by exposing previously ice-covered rocks which will suck out just as much CO2 as all the trees we cut down to make copies of Larry Flint's Barely Legal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodri
You can't just make statements like that without presenting evidence and I have looked at the temperature records presented in the international report on climate change and then compared them to longer records from the same weather stations and guess what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Reasoner
The truth is that during the period from late 1940's through to the early 1980's, the world was in a period of much cooler temperatures on average than the average over a full 200 year period of recording. The early 1900's were on average much warmer than the average temperatures now.
Now, climate and weather are two different things and although they are linked, the truth is that the proponents of 'manmade warming' are standing outside on the hottest summer day saying: "It's getting hotter. We need to do something now! Can't you feel how hot it is?" and to me, that's just Chicken Little running around screaming "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!".
I can see why and I can see how and although the why is (mostly) good, the how is very bad.
The thing about global warming is,itll happen no matter what. The scary thing about it is, we are causing it to happen alot quicker than it should. Increased carbon Dioxide levels and all that other junk are causing the temperature to rise faster than what is natural. We may not know for sure, but we can take an educated guess that humans are speeding up the rate.
Global Warming is real!!!
It's called Summer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rasterbee
Yea, that carbon dating thing....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodri
It's been like 2 years since I saw the graph, but it was recorded with carbon dating ( I think...) that it was a steady roller coaster type ride until the industrial revolution. Then, instead of doing it's usal decrease it steadies in the pattern I'll edit the post with the graph if I can find it, but I am not guaranteeing anything. Right now I can't say I want to argue something I dont know much about heh.
No, not at all crappy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reasoner
Carbon dating doesn't tell us anything about the climate of the past.
What they do is look at the chemical make up of the water on varying levels. Ice cores are like tree rings, they form levels on top of levels on top of levels. They can count the years and when they reach the year they would like to investigate they take the ice and look at how much oxygen/nitrogen/CO2/CO3/etc are present in the water and can accurately predict what was going on in the atmosphere how intense the greenhouse affect was, if any huge volcanoes exploded that year and what the temperature was and.............
Yeah, it's not carbon dating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rasterbee
Then at least one of my points weren't wrong >>Quote:
Originally Posted by Reasoner
If you want to check some temperature records in graph form and see if you can spot warming trends this is a good site:
What The Stations Say
It has temperature records for the last century from all over the world and gives some interesting insights.
This one is from Casy Station in Antarctica and I can't see any warming trend there.
http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/q...me55/casey.gif
It only goes to 2000 but you will notice that the avgerage summer temperatures for the last 5 years of the 20th century were lower than the overall average and if there has been a warming trend in the first decade of the 21st century at this station, it could just be normal variation back towards the overall seasonal average.
uh....Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodri
I guess I have some research to redo. I've shouted out a lotta crap without backing it up. I believe what I said to be true because I have read it before but have nothing to post right now that would corraborate anything I've said and I'm in the middle of a 12 hour Aika grind so I'll do it later.
Rodri has provided an excellent piece of information. I am a firm believer in formulating your own opinions in matters of science, any report you could possibly read will inevitably be biased in one way or the other, and that bias may influence your decision sub-consciously. As such, I encourage all of you to, rather than reading second-hand reports and analyses, to take a direct look at the temperature data [and other similar information] and draw your own conclusions from it.
Personally, I believe that global warming is occurring, however the extent of our interference is questionable. Does this mean that we should continue on our current path of wanton waste and destruction, of course not. However, businessmen and politicians, Gore included, are trying to cash out on our fear of this phenomena through Carbon Credits and other such inventions that really do very little to solve the problem [assuming there is one of note to begin with]; and the media certainly isn't helping with its fear mongering, but then the media will be the media.
I feel like you're talking directly to me. Nothing I said in this thread was from 2nd or 3rd hand sources.Quote:
Originally Posted by Heraclius
Not at all rasterbee. I am speaking to everyone, you name didn't even cross my mind as I composed that post.
Sorry, I'm just overly paranoid and suspicious of everything everyone says.
This seems to be the biggest problem. Most people are relying on what others tell them about this as it's difficult to understand all the science and all the implications.
I was probably fortunate that I happened to read the first hypothesis of greenhouse affect many years ago and I have tried to keep track of developments ever since. It's understandable that most people would have very little background knowledge about this subject and unfortunately it has almost become an issue of faith now for many.
"I believe in global warming" or "I don't believe in global warming" is the way most people state their position. Unfortunately, this isn't very scientific and doesn't advance general knowledge on the subject. I hope the information I provide can help some to think more and do some research because this is an issue which will impact all our lives and possibly the lives of future generations. They don't get much bigger than that.