Conrad - 1
Heraclius - 1
TWT - 0
I am referee.
Conrad - 1
Heraclius - 1
TWT - 0
I am referee.
Ok, it is clear the Conrad wants to have a twelve round cage match over Innocent, and as this is not the topic here I invite him to create his own thread for said debate. Hearacus, I agree in principal, but for the sake of argument, I would say, diminished, yes, destoyed, no
Edited for truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by iRovster
Well I wouldn't say diminished TWT. When you have civil war destroying entire legions while barbarian tribes are being mismanaged, I'd say that Corruption and poor decision making are the main reasons for the fall of the Western Empire. The Eastern Empire fell almost entirely to corruption.
Rather I am merely defending historical truth; as a historian I cannot let fallacies win the discussion.
(Last two paragraphs):
http://www.medievaltimes.info/mediev...e-middle-ages/
(Basic Information):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Innocent_III
Oh, sorry I wasen't clear, I ment the Pope was diminished, sort of a kepping my argument going thingQuote:
Originally Posted by Heraclius
Conrad, off topic, I am not going to resond to your provocations any longer, not this is not a concetion
Truth is not a provocation, I was just trying to help you. You have not given me any concise data that supports your "view". I have only your word which has been proven wrong in two separate situations.
Ah the Pope, yeah I'll need to agree with you in that case.
But your right about the Empires, both east and west
Under the Twelfth Century Section:
Pope Innocent III:
http://dic.academic****/dic.nsf/enwiki/1581778
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In addition, the Eastern Roman Empire/Byzantine Empire collapsed due to internal conditions, such as the failure of the themata system as strategoi often rebelled against the integrity of the state and the sacred reverence of the Basileus/Autokrater, with a dichotomy between the civilian administrators based in Constantinople and the great military administrators of the themata system as located in Anatolia being predominant.
The foreign policy of the Byzantines led to their downfall as it was mixed and confusing: Basil II Bulgaroctonus dealt with the Arab caliphates in the east, achieved hegemony in eastern Sicily and the southern part of Italy, or the Catapanate of Italy; Nikephorous II Phocas concentrated in the east; Manuel I Komnenos was erratic as he tried to push the borders on all fronts instead of achieving a specific and possible goal in which his world-wide ambitions were chimerical. In addition, Justin II as Augustus/Caesar of the Eastern Roman Empire descended into frenzied madness as Dara was captured by the Sassanian Persians; Tiberius II Constantine struggled to hold onto Byzantine territory; Heraclius' conquests were lost to the Arab caliphates, etc.
On the military front, the loss of central Anatolia to the Seljuk Turks of Iconium at the battle of Manzikert: 1071 CE was a great loss as that was the recruting grounds for the Byzantine kataphractoi/cataphracts. The Komnenian Dynasty from 1081-1185 CE recaptured some loss ground but shrank to the civil and military incompetence of the Angelid Emperors.