That is probably true. Think about it this way.
Defenders already can have some 600k archers. What if they had a 200 attack hero? That is 1800k archers attacking in one round. Obviously, no attacker could ever overcome that.
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I noticed Swordsmen skip defending warriors in City warfare, is this correct & what else do they skip?
If you show me a battle report I'll try explain it, but can't get too specific w/o details.
If by "skip" you mean that they don't hit warriors and hit other pikes and swords first, jus' remember that warriors move really slowly; they don't get to the front too fast.
When you mean 'no defender could ever overcome that', do you mean no attacker?
From what I've learned from this guide, I realise that increasing the defense of your units is limited to iron working. Therefore, having a certain number of archers is guaranteed to eliminate a certain number of any enemy unit. If defending hero's ATK attribute affects defending unit's attack against attacking units (confusing, yes), then this can be the case.
First off, great job on this guide; it helped me a lot with what to use/how to layer properly and the pros/cons of each troop. I first started and everyone said SPAM ARCHERS and now I'm seeing that's a bad idea.
I apologize if this has been mentioned, but I didn't feel like going through the 25 pages.
I had a question about ponies/phracts vs archers/ats. I noticed when I sent phracts with just 1 archer or 1 cav, it reduced losses a lot. It didn't reduce with anything else (warriors, scouts, swordsman, pikesman) only archers/cav.
Even on the exercise (I know its unreliable, but still) simming 25k phracts vs 100k archers showed me about 8k losses. When I tossed in just 1 archer, losses were reduced to 4k. When I tossed in 1 cav, they were down to 1.5k. Any other unit or more than a few hundred archers/cav resulted in major losses of the units added.
In the guide you mentioned scouts were the best layer for horseback units, so what can explain this?
The excecricse will start at range of the archers.
Read the later section about how ranged units work; the enemy archers will stop to hit the archer first.
Then they'll hit the pony.
Then they'll hit the 'phracts.
That's two free rounds your 'phracts get. The warriors/pikes/swords and such all come after the 'phracts and don't act as layer in this situation.
In a 5k range battle the 'phracts would outrun the archers and not be layered, so you'd need to reduce the range by then.
In those situations, scouts would work as the ideal layer for HBs, seein' as they rush forward and get in the way of the archers.
This tech only applies to traps. Archer towers are definitely not rebuilt after an attack.Quote:
Lv10 Mechanics increases your repairable rate of defences up to 30%. This means that defences will be automatically, instantly and freely repaired on a rate up to 30% immediately after each battle. However, this rate is reduced based on the size of the attackin' force. It's very possible that if you get overwhelmed, you wilnae have any defences repaired. Consider this a last priority tech.
great guide! btw, do you have something against G's?:D
do speak rastafarian' mon? Is that what your talken abou mon?
Any idea what the issue is between 9 and 10 compass vs lvl 10 npcs? It seems in both cases, the archers attack the warriors at the same round, the AT hit the archers in the same round and the archers hit the AT in the same round, despite the compass. I'd like to go to 10 since it pulls less losses than 9 if you have enough attack, but at the same time I like leveling up politic heroes off lvl 10's and that would be done for. I just want to figure it out to see if there's a way of layering around it.
Compass is pretty unrelated to politic heroes. Since they generally have about 50 attack (which is less than a third of the recommended 170+) then whether it's c9 or c10 it's not really gunna change the losses any. Best way around it is to use lots of layers and buffs.
Layer up on everythin' with at least 100~500 units. Use ponies as well; forget what everyone says about abati, HB units work as layers but for reasons I can't really explain. I layer up with 1 pony and 1 'phract with compass10 on low attack heroes and it cuts my losses in half for some reason. I'm not gunna question it.
Compass10 doesn't really knock the losses down all too much. It's the difference between 5~6k and 4~5k deaths really. If you're cool to lose an extra thousand or two archers per wave, then jus' hang at c9 until you've worked all your heroes up to approproate attack levels.
brady do you have reports to show the 2 cases horses and not in layer, especially the 1 case, I've seen people using this 1 and cant fig how it works these 2 ponies must die at range 5000 therefore rendering them inactive and pointless to the attack and layer, i know you say tou have no idea, but do you even have an inlination as to why it works? Must try it for myself actually
cant give you no more rep :( my hero and saviour tho and I actually have a good handle on battle mechanics because of you, brady for battle mechanics mod :D
Not a clue tbh. 11k abati trigger at 10% per round...or 5%...I forget.
That's 110/55 per round, more than enough to wipe out the HBs before they even take their initial movement.
But despite that, I attacked yesterday w/ a low attack hero and pulled some 26k deaths.
I added 1 pony and 1 'phract into it and was down to 11k deaths.
Similar effect when I remove other layers. The extra two layers slash my casualty rates...I jus' can't explain why such low numbers of ponies works...
weirdly your not the first to throw one of these unexplainables up wish evony would sort it
another one ive heard alot more than once is scout defending to a teen as opposed to single numbers and yesterday I tink got me in that one, might try add the pony phract to my current layer and see, alot of fine tuning to be done on an already delicate process I think
This situation only comes up with lower attack heroes; the higher you attack is the less need for layers you have. My main attack hero doesn't even use layers and still gets minimal deaths.
And unexplainables? Oooh, there's a lot of them to be sure.
You want one of my favourites?
Explain this:
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/a...orkerlives.jpg
well yes i would
i thought the workers layer shouldnt work
someone told me cant explain but use that layer, then yesterday i lost once completely another 75karchers
hero was 149 and 151, i used get 8k losses with that hoer using that layer, also friend of mine tried it and had sucess too
you think you have it all figured out and bam you get evonyed
Some workers survived.
That's not my report, and for the life of me I've not been able to replicate the effects. It's the only report I've ever seen where workers of that number have survived the battle.
This was a few months ago on a discussion where workers actually improved the battle outcome. We couldn't really explain that either, but the tests began to show that workers were reducin' losses more than other layers.
Then that one popped up where the workers survived and I' jus' like "lolwtf?"
Not thought about that report in a while. Never could explain it and it eventually jus' wound up sittin' in my "weird reports" folder until I see some revelation.
My idea on it is that it's connected to the round length. It's probably the only NPC10 report I have that only lasts ten rounds. I have compass10 and can only get battles as short as 11 rounds at lowest usually (I don't look at them all, though) but that one is ten rounds.
I'd think that the layers move forward, the archers kill the 400k and then march forward. The warrios get into AT and log range early and get slammed, whereas the workers are only in range maybe a round at most before the archers get in range and take the AT fire.
Most of the worker deaths would come from traps/logs I'd expect.
It fits as a theory, but I can't explain why the battle was that short, and why the archers got in AT range fast enough to draw AT fire away from the workers. Every other battle allows the workers to get into AT range in time to get shot, but there's nothin' special that made this battle any different...that I can see.
If your hero had Excalibur active and a base attack of about 70, the warriors would've died in 3 rounds (2 at 50% damage, one at full damage), the workers travelled 3600 yards in 10 rounds ending the battle just outside the logs range. At round 7 the workers have moved 2520 yards, the archers 2500 so both enter AT range on the same turn.
I can't remember the exact attack number, but it was around about 400~420.
I've tried to put together countless explanations but the same guy showed me two dozen other reports with the same hero (even some with the hero at a higher level) and this was the only time this effect happened. I figure if it was jus' a high damage thing then it would happen regularly, but it was a once-off.
battlewn4.evony.com/default.html?logfile/20091102/b0/20/b0200a420db981fa70051a23d47854b4.xml
Not really sure what went wrong here, shouldn't I have made quick work of the archers?
Maybe you pros can help me out here.
Finally finished them off with a the phract but even then I lost way too much :(
battlewn4.evony.com/default.html?logfile/20091102/91/91/9191a61fe8bbc2c95f4f1aa330206f38.xml
Layers and range. By the time you got to the archers they'd chewed your numbers down enough so that you couldn't do too much damage.
Also, since there were traps/abati, your scouts weren't actin' as layers.
Well, I know what I'm doing, I've just seen reports with lvl 100+ attack heroes pulling in 50k losses, with a typical well layered attack, and people blame compass 10. My politics hero at 60 attack and 9 compass Loses 7-11k archers an attack(usually under 10k) and that's barely any different from my 305 attack. I've even had the 60 attack hero drop losses down to 6k after 2, 5k warrior hits to drop some traps down. I just farm with politics heroes to level them up 10x faster than I would off lvl 5's. Though with the claim that you need Mid 200's in attack for 10 compass, I feel I would be in a world of hurt with that same guy.
That one report is nice though... Never been able to hit 10 rounds but have done 11 once. I just hate the random factors. I'll hit one lvl 10 and activate 7k traps over 12 rounds, then hit another and activate all 11k in 12 rounds with a mirrored attack. So either defending attack effects traps(which is the only factor I could even think of) or the mechanics are just there to **** you off.
hey brady i got a question i captured a hero with 350+ attack in my account where i am furstin the hero needs to be prinz for persuasion and 16 nation medals he is still in feasting hall i have other account with 1.9mill prestige and 170 nation medals, i think i will get the city from that account will the hero still exist in feasting hall of that city or he will run i need to persuade him now????
if i get the city with captured hero will i be able to persuade him or he will disappear???
I don't like tryin' to quantify compass effects, purely because the NPC10s are so wildly random. When I give numbers like that I try to leave it as a guideline rather than a set number like b'listers for NPC5s.
The hero I'm lvlin' up now gets 7~11k losses on NPC10s, whereas another hero I lvl'd up last week had more attack but took 20~40k.
I get that compass isn't always the effect, but it's not unrelated.
The fact that compass does affect round length and movement speed (even the basic math can tell you that in certain situations it will screw you over) changes things.
It all comes down to attack really. Thas why I say that compass10 jus' needs a higher attack value typically; because the only thing that matters at all is whether you kill the 400k before they reach you or not. You can use compass1 or compass10 and it doesn't matter so long as the horde don't reach you.
You can use any hero you want; buffs help. Only matters whethe ryou kill them or not. If they hit you, then you lose 20k+. If they don't hit you, then you lose 15k-. Whether this is caused by compass, attack, defence, buffs or layers I really don't care...as long as they don't hit my archers is all I focus on.
And yeah; 10 rounds is somethin' special. I typically get 11 and 12 rounds w/ c10. c9 jus' can't do that on a regular basis.
If the hero is captive in your city and you take over said city with your other account, then the hero will still be captive in yoru feasting hall. They don't move or escape or anythin'. Captive heroes remain put until they're released/persuaded.
Defending hero probably had a base attack of 5 so it probably had less than 10 attack.
Hey, its possible, and its the most likely cause of it. Finding a base 5 attack in an inn is just as hard as finding a base 69 - especially in a level 10 inn... you gotta go through a lot of heroes for that. Maybe you could say its as hard as finding a base 70+ in an inn (yes I have found one and my gf got a base 78 attack as well...)
Wouldn't explain why the battle was shorter.
Attack doesn't increase defence in any way, jus' the amount of damage their troops do. The ATs are enough to kill the workers in a single round, regarless of attack, and the 400k never even reached the archers.
Don't get me wrong, it could have an effect; I jus' don't see how.
Hm. I don't know.
By what I've worked out, the warriors got killed by the rollinglogs, and the workers didn't even reach them. Assuming the fight was starting at a 5k range and 10 rounds with 9 compass... the farthest the warriors could possibly go is 1200. And thats the 10th round, and since logs have a range of 1300, the warriors die. The workers could only make it to 1580.
The archers get into AT range before anything else can so thats also another thing...
Round 4 the archers would start attacking warriors, they are at 3100 and defending warriors are at 1600. Your warriors are at 3480
Round 5 keep shooting your warriors are at 3100 (with your archers)
Round 6 kill all warriors advance... with compass 9 you're not in AT range still, but... warriors are behind archers again.
Round 7&8 advancing still, now in AT range
Round 9 start hitting AT's.
Round 10 all AT's dead... and you win
Thats my basic calculations... And considering you can't get it below 11 now .... maybe back then it wasn't calculating a round or something, I don't know. Perhaps walls got buffed so after you take out the AT's you have to take out the walls as well.
Wait, would rollinglogs get the wall boost as well?
If so then I'm still not sure what happened... it is pretty confusing
Well as Birtles rightly pointed out; the workers and archers would reach AT range on the same turn. The ATs will target the archers which would spare the workers.
Any other 11 round battle will knock the archers back and put the workers in the line of hairy death before the archers can layer.
All the theories as to why the workers actually survived makes sense.
The one thing that's jus' not bein' explained is what caused the change to 10 rounds that is pretty much un-replicatable.
The last resort theory is that it was a bugged report. The same guy could never repeat it, I can't repeat it; seems no one can. If a report comes up once and once only, the odds are it was a glitch...but even so...what was the glitch? The battle jus' decided to skip a round and push the workers back?
Screwed if I know...there's a reason I gave up tryin' to make sense of that one.
Question: What is the formula for calculating the defensive wall bonus given to archers and AT's etc.??
I still don't see the mystery, I can replicate it fine on paper but unfortunately none of my heroes have 300 attack never mind 400. I reckon his hero had Excalibur boosting his attack enough to whack the warriors in 3 rounds on turn 6, on turn 9 the archers one-shot the ATs, turn 10 they demolish the wall. With a 420 attack hero and an Ivory Horn the archers may not have had enough firepower to one-shot the ATs, if you have a hero with such high attack try replicating it with Excalibur.
thanks for the guide,
and thank you especially for turning those pathetic unable-to-load links into jpg files!
*two thumbs up*
If there's a solid formula around, then I don't have it.
There are numerous theories, tests and reports done exclusively to test such things as wall ranges and battle range and the standard is that it's either 5% and the AT description range is incorrect, or that the bonus is 4.5%.
I'm inclined to believe the 4,5% theory.
Sure, like I say; all the theories make sense.
But why could the same guy never do it again? Same hero, same stats (he even showed reports with the same hero but higher level shortly after this report) and not once did this ever happen again.
It makes sense, but the fact that we can't make it happen again puts the idea that there's somethin' else we don't know, which makes it not make sense again.
If you follow...
I think I worded that badly...
In short...if it was jus' about the attack bonus, then he would have been able to do it again and there'd be a lot of reports like that out there; there's not.