thanks alot man and hey can u make a best or nice guide for hero training i know some good ways too so i will help u in there to train ur hero with less losses and more experience points or how to choose heroes from inn all etc it will be great
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I personally think the archers found a pile of scopes to add to their bows and used their bow and arrows as sniper rifles, allowing them to shoot from farther away. :D
But yeah, I don't have a clue what could cause it considering he can't replicate it.
The attacks on lvl 10 NPC's seem to be discussed a lot here and thats why I want to ask something very specific.
First of all we can establish that we all can win against a lvl 10 NPC and suffer less than 8k archers in losses.
I have compass 10 and I want to get into the damage dealt by the AT's of the npc.
AT number = 3666
Attack = 300
Damage dealt per round to archers (IW=10,MED=10) when in range of the AT's is:
3666*300*0,925/(250*1,5)= 2713
Scenario 1
My archers stand down at range 3000 and shoots down 400k warriors and then they advance to 2500,2000,1500. At range 1500 they stand down and kill the at's. But this means the at's have killed at least 3*2713= 8139 archers which cant be the case unless there is some range modifier to the at's...
Scenario 2
Same as above but the archers get "smart" and pause right outside the fire range of the at's and then move on up to range 1500. At's have killed at least 2*2713= 5426
Scenario 3
This one is a bit more complicated
archers movement 4500,4000,3500
npc warrior movement 400,800,1200
In the next round they move towards eachother and since the archers have range 1800 they will pause at 3222 since the warriors are at 1422, not going into specifics but lets call it a partial standdown which I dont know if it can happen or not. When warriors are dead archers move to 2722,2222,1722 and they stand down at fire on the at's at range 1722. This also solves the example in scenario 1.
I might be totally out in the blue on this one and I am happy to be corrected about any specifics. My conclusion so far is that the compass 10 wont mess up things.
The question is obviously what situation we have at hand here and if someone has figured this out before.
What can you do with a Hero you have captured?
The barbarians at's shouldnt be modified by any hero they have in town, at least from what I have heard previously. At's damage is also supposed to be melee from what I heard and hence no range modifier but sometimes you can wonder..
The partial standdown at range 3222 comes from a few equations and it is just a theory but it would make sense in many ways.
Consider the archers when they are at range 3500. The barbarians warriors are then at range 1200. The distance between them is now 2300 and have in mind that archers have range 1800.In the next round they move towards eachother, archers with speed 500 and warriors with speed 400.
w= 400*t (for warriors)
a = 500*t (for archers)
t is just some period of time for the movement in the round
then for archer standdown we have 2300-a-w=1800 or 2300-500*t-400*t = 1800 which gives t= 5/9.
Insert in the above and you get w = 400*5/9 = 222 (rounded down)
and a = 500*5/9 = 278 (rounded up)
so in round 5 this gives that the archers move to 3500-278 = 3222 when the warriors are at range 1200+222 = 1422. (3222-1422=1800)
The warriors will of course move on to 1600 in that round.
Anyways that is just a theory but it can explain some weird things that happen on the battlefield sometimes. And another thing that makes sense to this is that you wouldnt be able to benifit from a higher arch level if this didnt occur, just look at different cases with archers vs archers and same compass.
In all these cases i am assuming max tech levels but I think that is more or less clear.
Uh,correcti0n. Compass 10 gve 50% speed,so its 375 for archers n 300 for warriors
No it is 10% per compass level. HBR 10 gives 50% speed for cavalry and mechanics, you have them mixed up...
AT damage is ranged and has the damage cut. Easily enough proven by the fact that there are numerous reports with sub 5k archer deaths.
Also, battle range might not neccesarily start at 5k. There's a lot of evidence to suggest that it starts at 5,2k which would severly alter certain numbers.
Most of the weird things we can explain...it's the weird things that we can explain but happen randomly that get me. Then ofc the ones that can't get explained so easily...
Sometimes 1 pony/1 'phract will act as layers, despite the 11k abati.
Sometimes layers will allow higher deaths than unlayered archers.
Compass10 can often result in 60k losses for 150 attack heroes and other times result in 10k losses for 50- attack heroes...
Iunno what it is...NPC10s are weird things that don't like to have set in stone formulae.
It sure seems like it. Darkbrady, any comments on the partial standdown I wrote about for the archers, can they occur or is it like Birtles say, archers move first, then warriors?
There are some theorycraftin' threads, mainly from tivie that discusses such things.
He presented pretty compelling evidence on range bein' set at 5,2k.
He reckons that the AT range is incorrect and that the wall bonus is 5%. I believe that the AT range is correct but that the wall bonus is 4,5%. Problem is that it's pretty hard to prove which one's which because evidence points to both situations.
Read the thread here:
http://bbs.evony.com/showthread.php?t=72280
As for archers movin' before the warriors, there was a discussion a few pages back on this thread about the different rates units move at. There's a theory in the works that different units move in different orders; the idea bein' that the fastest units move first while the slowest units move last.
There's a lot to point towards it, but I'm not sure if there's any concrete evidence apart from the scoutbomb effect.
Regardless it would make the archers move before the warriors in this situation and alter some of the numbers.
I'd just like to say this is one of the best guides ive ever read, any even know as of now i am retired from the game, i will continue to follow threads like this for when (if) i restart..
Keep it up DarkBrady!
I've benefitted hugely from this guide. Thought I'd contribute few examples from my experiments with Scout bombing, Cavs & Phracts smacks and Range.
Scout Bombing Examples:
LargeScale_Failed_Scout_Bomb
MediumScale_Succesful_Scout_Bomb
LargeScale_Succesful_Scout_Bomb (Thanks to Dill on server 60)
Cavs/Phracts Smack on Short or No Range:
SmallScale_PoniesVsarchers_No Range
SmallScale_CavsPhractsSmack_No Range
Advantages and Disadvantages of Range:
Importance_of_Range
Bad_defense_ponies_long_range
A note on failed scout bombs. These must be the buggy cases. One thing I noticed was that a better hero I always succeeded :)
I had a peanut butter and honey sandwich and my fingers got all sticky. Then I came to this thread and some got on it.
hi, sry for the derail but if anyone could give me some help here http://bbs.evony.com/showthread.php?t=78004 it would b greatly appreciated. (lookin for help seting up horse attacks, better explained in link)
thx an cheers
Congratz on the sticky Darkbrady! Well deserved!
Don't know if this is relevant now but..
battle2.evony.com/default.html?logfile/20091109/be/97/be9790eb3532a58dbb4245168a15438d.xml
Attack hero 421, all research maxed.
You mind throwin' out some similar attacks, but w/ a few thousand workers in the mix?
If you can score 10 rounds again with workers you might be able to replicate this and confirm that it's down to pullin' the battle short, which is unusual and explain why this doesn't happen often.
Yeah no worries, what was the other method used? 2k warriors, 2k workers?
well , that took up a fair bit of time to read
This guide seems to be one of the best, especially keeping in mind complicated matter of the subject.
Although the guide clarifies the battle mechanics a lot, some questions still remained.
1. Engineering technology increases 'durability'. What is this -- life or defence of ATs?
2. BoostedUnitAttack should also include Items bonus.
2. How do RollingLogs & Trebuchets kill? All at once (doubtful) or autokill as Traps (how frequent then?)
3. How does damage for autokills (Traps etc) spread among troops -- evenly or some preferences?
4. What is the formula, linking Life-Attack-Defence? I found this: HitPoints=Life/(1-Defence/1000), meaning HitPoints vs Attack. Is it correct?
5. Engaged ranged units don't shoot, but melee instead -- correct?
6. Ranged units prefer ranged ones -- are there any priorities for other troops (say Cavalry prefer ...)?
7. Can troop change a target in the next round or it fights a chosen enemy until death (and then switch to another target)?
8. Is there any bonuses for specific attacks (say Pikes vs Cavalry) or everything goes just according to an attack value for any opposite troop?
Sorry for the long list, but battles are still rather mysterious (say Scouts action) and I try to clarify for myself.
Thanks you
http://battle38.evony.com/default.ht...8448dc8162.xml
Found this in the battle reports section
Report 1: http://battle5.evony.com/default.htm...025322763c.xml
Report 2:http://battle5.evony.com/default.htm...c88572a143.xml
Report 3:http://battle5.evony.com/default.htm...e9f9bf9758.xml
Report 4:http://battle5.evony.com/default.htm...ee6c51e9b5.xml
Report 1 & 2:
Similar attacks and similar defense - except report 1 has sword and pikeman on defense.
Report 1 loses 45k archers with the extra layer of defenses and 0 archers without swords and pike.
Report 3 & 4:
Again, similar attacks except the attacker has an extra layer of cataphracts. Defender loses 2k archers with swords and pike, and loses 25k archers without.
Confused? me too.
Reports 3 and 4 are a simple case of layerin'.
Fuller layer and the archers take few losses, and a emptier layer allows the offense to hit fast and reach the archers.
Reports 1 and 2 are the type of things that baffle people in this game, 'cuz it's pretty much the opposite.
The pikes move fast, which meant they got into the offensive archers range quickly. Your archers stopped to destroy them which made the defence all have to advance; since they move at different speeds they started to split up and gave the offence easy-pickings to shoot at them one by one.
When the pike isn't there, the defence don't need to move as much because the offence never stopped movin'. The offensive archers attackin' the defence when it's grouped together gets them killed quicker.
Now you ask "but wait, that means fast defensive units are bad?!"
Well yes and no.
Yes, because as everyone knows, HB units don't work well as defence and get killed quicker, and yes those pikes in the defence actually got more archers killed....
But no, because HB units move so much faster that they get in range of, and killed before the defence advances too far (especially so w/ archer damage bonuses on ponies) and because if those pikes were in greater number they would have worked as a better stall and been alive by the time the enemy got in range, too.
Thin layers are bad. They work for the case of a rainbow, but generally you're better off with fuller layers than thinner ones.
Sayin' that, anyone can say that situations like that are pretty rare.
Nice guide Brad, now I'll try to summarize what I got from this thread.Please correct me if I'm wrong.
1. Battle start not at 5k range but around 5.2k
2. point zero is defender starting location
3. Defender troops will only move if the attacking unit trigger any fortification or entering any unit/AT attack range
4. Scoutbomb
Scoutbomb in the simplest form is doing kamikaze attack using purely scout in a high number over and over to took out the archer.
Scout will attack archer if archer is the most 'valuable' unit (can you tell my what determine the 'value'.For now I assumed it unit with highest attack in total)
with compass lv 10 scout have 6k move speed so they can reach point zero and hit the archer/any unit they consider 'valuable' without fighting other type of unit (layer)
from my experiment scoutbomb will fail if you put other kind of infantry unit. I have suspicion that attacking scout will only move if other infantry unit are killed (unproven)
5. Horse are good for attacking and not too good for defending. Horse have habit to bypass all unit and focus on attacking archer, but then there is time where they fight the layers and ignore the archer (don't know why).
adding 1 archer with cavalry attack will help since the defending archer will focused on attacking the archer giving your cavalry free attack
6. NPC lv 10 have some randomness that make the amount of troops you lose vary. Compass lv 10 may or may not affect this.
7. Attack from range unit are rounded up
8. traps/abatis/rolling log/rockfall didn't instant kill but give certain damage to unit. AT damage are considered as melle damage.
Do I miss something important?
Btw I have Question
let say in a town battle the attacking troops start at 5.2k range. I attack with 10k cavalry (all tech max) vs 10 abatis, 1k cavalry, 100k pikemen -they also have max tech- (this is just an example,I won't do this in the real battle)
first round
with HBR 10 cavalry have 3k move speed so they will move to 2.2k triggering the abatis
since my cavalry trigger the abatis the defending troops are moving for the second round, my question is where will my cavalry stand on the second round?Do they :
a) stay in 2.2k while the defending cavalry move to 2.2k and fight my cavalry.
b) Move to 1.1k and fight the defending cavalry there
c) Move to 0 and fight the defending cavalry and pikemen there
d) Move to 600 (pikeman position) and fight defending cavalry and pikemen there
will this be work at all serve?
why is report 1 and 2 weird? they seem normal to me, enemy archers eventually will engange defence archers, but they cannot see the ballista cuz ballista is firing at them outside their range. 15k+ ballista is around the attack of 50+k archers.
Also notice the defending hero lvl.
This does not look like a matter of layering.. i doubt any layers he would have put would haev made much changes. Its a matter of speed. He was able to kill some archers when there was not so many of them, but when the were a lot, the attacking archers did not have time to reach defending archers.
I think this would have worked much better for u, had u kept the first attack as it is, and instead of the other attacks made a cavalry/cata bomb.
...okay that where I'm wrong, I thought HBR will give the same boost like compass
Thnx for the clarification
I mean if you put another infantry unit with the scoutbomb like 90k scout and 10k warrior then the scoutbomb will failedQuote:
from my experiment scoutbomb will fail if you put other kind of infantry unit. I have suspicion that attacking scout will only move if other infantry unit are killed (unproven)
Other infantry units only get in the way if their value exceeds the archers. The scoutbomb will simply attack the highest value unit; most folk ju's generally flood with archers and little else, makin' the archers the target.
Oh.
Yeah.
The scoutbomb will fail beacsue the scouts will then not be the only unit there and not in a kill-or-die position, so they'll sit back and do nothin' while your other troop marches.
By the time your scouts are the only ones left, the enemy has split up and you'll have to hit the layers before you reach the archers; scoutdeath.
Thanks you for clarifications, Darkbrady.
I'll continue with my questions.
1. AT behaves like other ranged units with the following exceptions:
- it doesn't move :)
- the only technology which changes its characteristics seems to be Engineering (ATs life). All other technologies are not applicable.
Is it correct? Sorry, if it sounds obvious.
2. Ulfhere's comments about traps&abatis: "abatis trigger 10% of their total every round. Traps trigger 5% immediately and 5% every 2 rounds thereafter.". It's taken from http://bbs.evony.com/showpost.php?p=605257&postcount=15
1) I am curious what the rates are for Logs & Trebs.
2) When it is said "10% of their total", by total it means initial amount or the rest after each round?
3. Does traps (and other auto-damage fortifications) damage spread evenly among troop groups regardless to troop amount?
Say traps deal 1k damage to pikes & archers. Is it spread 500 to pikes and 500 to archers regardless of unit amounts in each group? 1k pikes & 10k archers or 1 pike & 50k archers doesn't matter? If yes, then it's an additional plus to rainbow formation.
4. "Engaged ranged units don't shoot, but melee instead -- correct?". I mean the following: if a ranged unit (my 10k archers) is engaged in melee by some enemy unit (say 1 pike), it can't shoot at enemy ranged unit (10k archers) until it is in melee (pike). Is it correct?
5. Target priorities are the following (please correct):
1) For ranged only: prefer ranged with melee exception (previous point).
2) For all units: closest enemy, then high-valued enemy. High-valued variants: biggest amount, biggest threat (amount*attack), resource-based (market prices can change priorities?)
6. How does attack occur?
Variants:
1) Attacker first.
Attacker hits.
Remained (minis killed by attacker) defender hits.
2) Defender first.
3) Hit together.
Attacker hits.
Defender hits.
Killed units are subtracted from attacker & defender.
Which variant is right?
7. Scout action still remains the mystery or is it clarified?
Scouts don't move until they remain the only unit in army -- is it confirmed for PvP mode?
Thanks in advance
Since we're asking questions...
1. Can you really layer against ATs? Say 17K AT + 100 abatis, gates closed. You go in with ~99-100K archers. Any use to bring pike/sword/cav/phract as layer/rainbow?
2. Do ballistae layer archers when 5K defenses are gone? (battle starts when ballys/arc are still 'together')
1. Nope
2. If there's enough ballista they'll draw the enemies' fire. It's better to have the archers take the hits as balls do a lot more damage, you want them to last as long as possible.