Rome: Empire or Republic?

[BrotherhoodUK]

Okay everyone, just calm down... This is about Rome, remember? Not Britain. Please remember that. Thank you.

Good point.

On a side note: The British Empire was the biggest empire the world has ever seen.

Right, now to go back to Rome......

I don't really know if Rome should have been an empire or not...... After all, the Senate was still there, but it didn't really hold much power under the Emperors.

[LaoOmologo]

Before Cornelius Sulla got to the power everything in Rome was good. They had the best connections with Judea and Gaul, and no one wanted there to be a new age of the Kings. At first Rome was a kingdom, and during that period was the city destroyed 7 times. And that was under 200 years! But when Sulla gave himself the position "Dictator for life", he got killed three years later, got also Julius Caesar the idea of an empire. Julius Caesar wasn't the creator of the Empire, nor was Augustus, but Sulla. Julius Caesar got the credits for the Empire because of his charismatic personality, and his campaign in Gaul.
What I mean with all of this is that the death of the Republic started when Cornelius Sulla and Marcus Caesar(The uncle of Julius Caesar, also the creator of the law: Slaves should be able to get a job as a legionaire) fought for the power over Rome.

[LaoOmologo]

[QUOTE=BrotherhoodUK;1020320] On a side note: The British Empire was the biggest empire the world has ever seen. [QUOTE]

And no, Alexander the Great's empire was bigger

[Tsubasa]

[QUOTE=LaoOmologo;1020331][QUOTE=BrotherhoodUK;1020320] On a side note: The British Empire was the biggest empire the world has ever seen.

And no, Alexander the Great's empire was bigger

nope genghis khan's empire was biggest
but Britain was the biggest for ruling longer time but I am an Ottoman so I have some problems with Brits

as for Rome people really don't care about who rules them if they have (currently 6k US dollars per year) money
an 'englightened despot' is better than a noob president
there is no conclusion as 'republic' is better than 'kingdom'
but there has to be justice all the time
an unjust rule is not a rule at all

[BrotherhoodUK]

nope genghis khan's empire was biggest
but Britain was the biggest for ruling longer time but I am an Ottoman so I have some problems with Brits

The British Empire: 33.7 million sq. km in 1922

The Mongol Empire: 33.0 million sq. km in 1309

The Roman Empire: 6.5 million sq. km in 117 AD

[Tsubasa]

The British Empire: 33.7 million sq. km in 1922

The Mongol Empire: 33.0 million sq. km in 1309

The Roman Empire: 6.5 million sq. km in 117 AD

you maybe right bro
good to know you may be biggest but I am an Ottoman I know the best
as for the thread
Rome was a twat they enslaved people tortured them and put them on crosses
still other tribes were referred as 'barbarians'
barbarians rule!!!

[LaoOmologo]

Rome was a twat they enslaved people tortured them and put them on crosses
still other tribes were referred as 'barbarians'
barbarians rule!!!

Long live the German Tribes

[joemanf]

Bumping.
Okay guys, you're getting better. Now were on the subject of Rome. Now I want you all to tell me why Rome should have been a republic/empire.

[Conrad_Jalowski]

Joemanf, you have unleashed Conrad Jalowski: the Greek, Hellenistic, Roman, Medieval, Byzantine and Italian Renaissance scholar.


My preference is not listed in the poll. After the civil discord, political disequilibrium and social dissonance of the late period of the Roman Republic, I would have maintained the course of events initially taken by Augustus Caesar and as maintained under the Five Benevolent Emperors but would have not descended and devolved into the autocratic, imperious and malevolent rule of the petty despots, princelings and usurpers of the 'Barracks Period' of 235-284 C.E, the excessive despotism of the Roman 'Dominate Period' of 284-395 C.E or the ineffective and decrepit succession of emperors and Roman sovereigns of the Western Roman Empire portion that lasted from 395-476 C.E. My choice of government would be a principate which is a form/mode of government between a republic and an empire.

In its general composition/framework, a principate is a form of government with a monarchical core enveloped by an oligarchic form. According to such a political infrastructure, the ideal would be a society and political structure equidistant from the vulgarity and the frenzied passions/impulses of the rabble prodded along by demagogues as well as the hubris and royal abuses of a complete despotism/autocracy. [Philosophically, the common denizens of a given state could represent eros or libidinous, lascivious and vulgar urges/impulses while the ruling elite such as the oligarchs and magnates would represent thymos or high-spiritedness and the sin of hubris.]

The first major crisis that began to corrode the values and principles of the Roman Republic arose because of the political machinations of the brothers Tiberius Gracchus and Sempronious Gracchus who utilized the Roman plebeians by exciting them to a feverish pitch by inciting a burning desire for greater individual autonomy, self-sovereignty and political representation from the patricians and the avaricious landowning classes. However, Rome was not Periclean Athens. In a sense, the Gracchi were demagogues prodding the rabble along and using the populace of Rome as an engine of political government. However, the rabble is fickle, excessive in its emotions, ignorant and licentious. [In Plutarch's "Life of King Pyrrhus", the Plutarchan King Pyrrhus remarked on the rise of demagogues and the licentiousness of the rabble after the death of Agathocles who was the despot of Syracuse and self-styled 'King of Sicily'.] The rabble is elemental, savage, irrational, voracious and terrible-a mighty political behemoth formed out of the dense collection of the common denizen. At a simultaneous interval, the magnates and oligarchs of Rome were avaricious, hubristic and contemptful or contumelious.

The Gracchi disrupted the political scene of the Roman Republic by creating fissures within the scheme of the republican form of government with the increased enmity between the plebeians, equestrian class [equites] and the patricians. The next major breaks would be the Jugurthine War and the Marius [of the populares]-Sulla [of the optimates] conflicts. The Jugurthine War was a military conflict between King Jugurtha of Numidia and the Roman Republic. According to Sallust's account titled "On the Jugurthine War", Rome was easily manipulated by King Jugurtha's political machinations, false encomium or praise to the Roman oligarchy and its common denizens, and diplomatic stratagems. In the end, Marius and his representative Sulla defeated King Jugurtha, however, Rome's avarice or greed was corroding its core principles and values: Republican Rome was dilapidating or decaying in the inside with domestic turmoil and civil discord being rampant.

Gaius Marius maintained the frontier lands of the Roman Republic as he rebuffed the barbarian incursions of the Cimbri and Teutones, however, in his six successive elections as a consul [Consul: Two consuls were the supreme magistrates of the Roman Republic that were elected. Therefore, the Roman Republic was a diarchy (dyarchy) in the form of supreme civilian and military power invested in the two consuls. However, the plebeian tribunes were inviolable in their offices and could not be dominated by the Roman consuls. Also, if both consuls were absent from the city of Rome, the Urban (Senior) Praetor would maintain the city of Rome until the arrival of the consul(s). Beneath the civilian office of the consuls were the praetors, aediles and quaestors. In addition, although the Roman Dictator exerted supreme military, social and political hegemony, the office was used only in the case of emergencies and was constitutionally allowed to exist for only a period of six months under any given individual. Examples of Roman dictators include Cincinnatus, Fabius Maximus 'the Cunctator', Camillus, etc. However, the title of Roman dictator was abused by such individuals as Marius, Sulla and Julius Caesar.], the burning desire for individual autonomy weakened as the Roman populace became despondent and indolent under increasing periods of social unrest and social disequilibrium.

During the Mithridatic Wars, Rome fought against Mithridates VI Eupator Dionysius of Pontus, Tigranes II Eupator of Armenia and pirate strongholds such as at Cilicia [located in Anatolia]. In the military scene, Mithridates VI of Pontus was defeated after three separate invasions by three successive Roman generals [Sulla, Lucullus and Pompey 'the Great'] and was slain by a servant in the Crimea while Tigranes II Eupator surrendered to Pompey 'the Great' and became an ally and vassal under Roman hegemony. In the civil and political scene, Gaius Marius and his chief lieutenants Cinna and Quintus Sertorius fought against Sulla and his partisans. The resultant civil tension and turmoil resulted in fratricide and great bloodshed with the writhing of decaying flesh and the slaughtering of the innocent. When Sulla emerged triumphant after the death of Gaius Marius and the murder of the Marian supporter Cinna, Quintus Sertorius fled Rome and Italy to the Iberian peninsula. There, Sertorius with his brilliant oratory, charisma and military skill received the support of numerous Celtiberian tribes and exiled Roman groups who found the reign of Sulla repugnant and vile. Quintus Sertorius defeated the two generals of Metellus and Pompey 'the Great' in numerous engagements and armed conflicts, formed a pact with Mithridates VI Eupator Dionysius of Pontus and received aid from numerous pirate strongholds. In short, Quintus Sertorius was on the verge of forming a politically autonomous and sovereign Romano-Spanish republic based in the Iberian promontory/peninsula before he was slain by his own chief officers who were invidious or jealous of his growing powers. In a banquet, Sertorius was slain by a group of officers at the instigation of Perpenna who shortly assumed command. Perpenna was quickly subdued and slain by Metellus and Pompey 'the Great' and the dream of Quintus Sertorius for an autonomous Romano-Spanish state forever vanished.

The conflicts between the Optimates ["the best/good men"] and the Populares ["of the people"] continued with Julius Caesar and his partisans and Pompey 'the Great' and his partisans. [A previous concern was the rebellion and conspiracy of Catiline that was recorded by both Sallust and Marcus Tullius Cicero.] The Roman Civil War lasted from 49-45 B.C.E. In a coordinated assault, Julius Caesar eliminated all the Pompeian and Senatorial supporters in Italy who were isolated and unorganized and captured the city of Rome. Caesar than assaulted the Roman province of Hispania to quickly eliminate all strongholds and bastions devoted to the cause of Pompey and the Senate. He then suffered a minor and organized retreat from the troops of Pompey 'the Great' at the coastal town at Dyrrachium but completely subjugated and overthrew Pompey at the major battle of Pharsalus on 48 B.C.E. The next phase of the Roman Civil War or the "Alexandrian War" consisted of Julius Caesar supporting Cleopatra VII for the Ptolemaic throne and defeating King Pharnaces II of Pontus who was a son of Mithridates VI Eupator at the battle of Zela. The succeeding phase or the "African War" consisted of Julius Caesar defeating King Juba of Numidia and Scipio at the battle of Thapsus with the tragic death and stoic bravery of Marcus Portius Cato Uticensis at the African town of Utica. The final phase of the Roman Civil War or the "Spanish War" consisted of Julius Caesar defeating the remaining Pompeian and Senatorial forces at the battle of Munda on 45 B.C.E. The elder son of Pompey [Gnaeus Pompeius] was captured and murdered while the younger son of Pompey [Sextus Pompeius] escaped successfully.

[Conrad_Jalowski]

[Continued]:

In 44 B.C.E, Julius Caesar was assassinated by the self-styled Liberatores led by the chief conspirators [Gaius Trebonius, Marcus Junius Brutus, Marcus Decius Brutus and Gaius Longinus Cassius]. This foolhardy attempt at restoring the Roman Republic as it had been under Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus during the 3rd Century B.C.E failed. The assassination of Julius Caesar led to the formation of the official "Second Triumvirate" between Octavius Caesar, Mark Anthony [Marcus Antonius] and Lepidus. [The two Republican consuls Hirtius and Pansa died during their projected campaign against Mark Anthony which allowed Octavius to achieve the political appellation of consul granting him access to greater political and military hegemony leading to the formation of the Second Triumvirate with Lepidus and Mark Anthony.] The naval battle of Actium that occured in 31 B.C.E dissolved the duumvirate between Octavian Caesar and Mark Anthony and Alexandria [capital city of Ptolemaic Egypt] capitulated to the forces of Octavian in 30 B.C.E. Finally, in 27 B.C.E the Principate of Augustus Caesar was proclaimed with the formal abjuration or dissolution of the Commonwealth.

Note: [The substance of the term 'commonwealth' originated in philosophical and political thought from the Platonic and Aristotelian concepts of politeia (polity) The substance of such a term was carried on in the Roman term 'res publica' as well as in the philosophical works and treatises of Marcus Tullius Cicero. To take it further, the official motto of the Holy Roman Empire or the "Sacrum Roman Imperium" was labeled in Medieval Latin as: "Sacrum Imperium et Diva Res Publica" or "Holy Empire and Holy Commonwealth".]

The Julio-Claudian Dynasty was a succession line of Roman emperors composed of Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius and Nero. Galba, Otho and Vitellius who immediately succeeded the Julio-Claudian line were mere usurpers/claimants to the imperial dignity and their reigns proved to be ephemeral and transient. The numerous usurpations were put to an end with Vespasian who formed the Flavian Dynasty that was to be maintained by his succeeding sons Titus and Domitian. After the murder of the malevolent and repugnant Domitian, Nerva took the appellation of "Caesar". Nerva's reign was a period of transition from the despotism of Domitian to the benevolent, virtuous, moderate and glorious reigns of the succeeding emperors, sovereigns and princes of the Trajan and Antonine lines. Though Nerva was just and mild, his reign was ineffective due to his pusillanimity or his irresolution and vacillation. Though Nerva had a weak and mild disposition he was benevolent and virtuous.

The sovereigns and princes who immediately succeeded the reign of Nerva were Trajan, Hadrian, Antoninus 'Pius' and Marcus Aurelius. According to Niccolo Machiavelli and Edward Gibbon the combined reigns of these benevolent figures was the greatest glory of the Roman Empire. Such princes were prudent and virtuous and not led by the dictions of petty whim and vulgar desires or driven by licentious fury. They did not descend or devolve to a complete subservience to lascivious or lu****l passions and their reigns were somewhat of a golden age of moderate Roman law, jurisprudence and hegemony with the maintenance of military vigor, civil union and social equipollence or a general 'balance of affairs'.

Note: [The Roman Empire reached its apogee of political sovereignty in 117 C.E through the eastern conquests and expeditions of 'Princeps' Trajan that occured from 113-117 C.E. In his eastern expeditions, Trajan subjugated Armenia, Mesopotamia and Assyria and captured the Parthian capital of Ctesiphon. Even though such conquests proved to be ephemeral and strained the military resources of the empire as these eastern possessions were relinquished by Hadrian, Trajan's eastern expeditions and conquests were the last major conquests of the Romans before the demarcation or boundary lines became permanent and Rome went on the defensive against barbarian incursions.]

The reigns of these benevolent princes ended with the succession of Commodus who proved to be a hubristic monstrosity and a decrepit sovereign. After the murder of Commodus, Pertinax Maximus briefly succeeded before he too was murdered. The appellation of "Caesar" was purchased by an affluent senator and patrician named Didus Julianus who reigned briefly until the emergence of three separate usurpers/claimants to the Roman imperial throne: Septimius Severus, Clodius Albinus and Pescennius Niger. In the conclusion of these set of conflicts Septimius Severus emerged victorious. Septimius Severus was immediately succeeded by his two sons Geta and Caracalla who were to reign simultaneously. Caracalla slew his own brother Geta and assumed suzerainty over the Roman people. However, this wicked and immoderate prince was slain in an eastern expedition targeted against the Arsacids of Parthia.

The period of Roman history from 235-284 C.E or the 'Barracks Period' was an incessant succession of immoderate, truculent, imperious, intellectually otiose or ineffective/dull and decrepit princes and sovereigns. The Roman Empire was torn apart with the emergence of four separate kingdoms: the Britannic Empire, the Gallic Empire, the Illyrian Empire and the Palmryene Empire. However, such separatist kingdoms and domains were defeated and reintegrated into the Roman Empire by Emperor Aurelian, and by the belliferous or the war-like and excellent princes Probus and Carus. The 'Barracks Period' ended with the reign of Emperor Diocletian. The Roman 'Dominate Period' lasted from 284-395 C.E from the ascension of Diocletian [284 C.E.] to the death of Theodosius I 'the Great' [395 C.E.]. Finally, the period of the Western Roman Empire lasted from 395-476 C.E from the accession of Honorius [395 C.E.] to the deposition of Romulus Augustulus [476 C.E.] by Odoacer of the Herculi who arrogated onto himself the appellation of 'Viceroy of Italy'.

Note: [Although the last de facto Roman emperor Romulus Augustulus was deposed in 476 C.E. by Odoacer of the Herculi, Julius Nepos was the last de jure Roman emperor who maintained his sovereignty in Dalmatia until his murder in 480 C.E. Finally, Syagrius of the Soissons maintained his own Roman state/domain from 457-489 C.E. until he was defeated in battle and slain by Clovis I, King of the Frankish tribes.]