The Green Revolution

[KOOPS95]

Ok, so consider the alternatives...
Ask the people of the land what they want to do for birth control. I promise you that the men will make the rule/law and that the law they make will be something like "Mutilate the womens reproductive area with a hot stone or a long sharp stick." And the women may even agree. Why? Because that is how their culture rolls. It is normal for them to listen to the men and do body mutilation. Do you want to endorse something that they would dream up?
You should not be peeved at what I suggested. You are peeved because it goes against OUR culture and upbringing. But if we suggested it to the people of the other land they may love it because it is an alternative to body mutiliation or witch doctor stuff...

You are aware that adding birth control to the drinking water will seriously effect- Oh I don't know, EVERYTHING- right? With just trace amounts polluting the great lakes right now, many fish species are dying out more quickly than ever before because the medicine alters their fetuses' genders to female too often. Many frog species have already been eradicated because of their vulnerability to such medicinal polutants, and several studies have even shown that those who drink the water develope more pregnancy problems (it doesn't prevent their pregnancies so much as mutate the fetuses, causing brain and heart defects among other things).

Essentially, your argument is: "Let's poor birth control into wells so that third world countries won't do mean things to women to stop pregnancy." I think what you don't realize is THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES DON'T DO MEAN THINGS TO WOMEN TO STOP PREGNANCIES. If they are indeed as uncivilized as you think, what makes you think they'll even try to neuter their population?

[imnothere]

right now i dont care how they manage BC under their own choices. right now my main concern is that you think that taking away a persons RIGHT to CHOOSE what happens in their life is a good idea so that you can MANAGE the population.
what makes you think they NEED their population MANAGED by you?? what gives you the right to say how that should be done???
if they decide of their own free will to have mastectomies with prehistoric tools, even though that is a bad idea and lots of woman will likely die form it ITS STILL THEIR F'ING CHOICE!!!!!!!!!! what gets me so flaming angry is not that it goes against my "American" values (btw i have never claimed to be an american) its that it goes against my nature, that nature that says every life has the right to choose what it is going to do with that life.

[*jdm*]

I said "If the local government agrees". This implies that the people of the area have also agreed
Please keep an open mind.

yeah because governments always consult the people

What? You mean you don't have 3 wives? What? You mean you don't feed your newborns goat blood? What? You mean you let women show their skin? What? You mean that you do not speep with 10 other women besides your 3 wives? What? You mean that you do not offer your wife as a present to a visiting guest so they can sleep with her? What? You don't kill people for sleeping together outside of wedlock? What? you don't make your 5 year old kids work in the mines and bring all the money home to you?

i

[japanpimp]

You are aware that adding birth control to the drinking water will seriously effect- Oh I don't know, EVERYTHING- right? With just trace amounts polluting the great lakes right now, many fish species are dying out more quickly than ever before because the medicine alters their fetuses' genders to female too often. Many frog species have already been eradicated because of their vulnerability to such medicinal polutants, and several studies have even shown that those who drink the water develope more pregnancy problems (it doesn't prevent their pregnancies so much as mutate the fetuses, causing brain and heart defects among other things).

Essentially, your argument is: "Let's poor birth control into wells so that third world countries won't do mean things to women to stop pregnancy." I think what you don't realize is THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES DON'T DO MEAN THINGS TO WOMEN TO STOP PREGNANCIES. If they are indeed as uncivilized as you think, what makes you think they'll even try to neuter their population?

Putting BC in the drinking supply to limit fertility by 50% was just one idea for lands where women do not want to choose or have free will. The basic thought here is an area wide form of BC that is easy to adminster to all.

right now i dont care how they manage BC under their own choices. right now my main concern is that you think that taking away a persons RIGHT to CHOOSE what happens in their life is a good idea so that you can MANAGE the population.
what makes you think they NEED their population MANAGED by you?? what gives you the right to say how that should be done???
if they decide of their own free will to have mastectomies with prehistoric tools, even though that is a bad idea and lots of woman will likely die form it ITS STILL THEIR F'ING CHOICE!!!!!!!!!! what gets me so flaming angry is not that it goes against my "American" values (btw i have never claimed to be an american) its that it goes against my nature, that nature that says every life has the right to choose what it is going to do with that life.

That is not what I said. I said "if the local government approves". So nobody is taking the rights away from anyone if the people of the land agree to that form of BC.
Also, you put a high value on your rights and you ability to chose for yourself. I do too. But others do not. In other cultures the women do not WANT to have a choice. Just because you want a choice does not mean that everyone does. You cannot press your values on others. It would be like you moving to some remote region and strange culture then "preaching" your views on the people "All of you have rights! Rights to choose!! Rights to make your own decisions!!" The women may even tell you to be quiet and that it is the mans job to tell them what to do, not theirs. Some people in certain lands do not WANT to choose. And those are the places where BC is a real issue. How would you deal with this issue if women and people in the area did not want to choose and other culture factors dictated that a more broad and controlling approach be taken?

[King Dylan]

Japanpimp, calm down. I think we're all taking african sterotypes to th extreme. Sure it happens, but the media needs a good story so they target those few things and make it a big deal. What if the people actually want children, but can't, because the water is contaminated. What if the project fails and the water becomes lethal?

[Gnerphk]

Well, I hate to get in the middle of something like this, but...

As it happens, most soy products (vegetable oil, for instance) contains analogues of the hormones one finds in both male and female forms of chemical birth control. This isn't a new idea; someone apparently came up with it some years ago and is putting it into practice around the world... or we're just really stupid as a race. Or both.

Did you know that there are measurable levels of estrogen in the rain worldwide? Guess where it comes from. Fun thing is, it's increasing annually.

There are other things to worry about, but this one's particularly fun.

[Rodri]

OP needs to ask for a lock.

[Heraclius]

Ha this thread did take quite a turn from the advent or genetically modified crops, that's for sure.

[Gnerphk]

Hmm... I'd actually have to disagree. This has turned into a rather interesting discussion -- and that is why we're here, after all.

In general, of course, I'd agree with the premise that discussions ought to be kept on track. In this case, though, the question was asked and answered. I see no harm in continuing with the thread and seeing where it goes; at least in here, it's not going to be diverted by LOLcats and random bits of spam.

Besides, watching JP attempt to defend something so apparently indefensible is worth continuing. (Indefensible, by the bye, not due to the inhumanity of the suggestion but rather its intrinsic flaw - the side-effects on other populations. Ruthless barbarity is sometimes necessary, albeit deplorable.)

[Humility]

That right there is awesome.... And you know what, sometimes thinking like this is just fine. If the local government agrees, no reason birth control can't be put in the drinking water. I mean, sometimes sweeping statements and generalizations and falicious reasoning works. I am not being sarcastic.
And you know what? I bet $100 that many women in underdeveloped regions are PRAYING for birth control because they really don't want 10 children just because the men "force" them to.
Cheap, safe birth control. And condoms are not the solution in those places. You think that men are going listen to a woman and take the time to put one on if she asks? So something in the water that reduces men's fertility rate by 50% would be awesome.

there is one problem with that,

1. Yes, it may sound as simple as placing fluoride in the water like we do, but their water supplies aren't regulated like most of civilization, most of their water comes directly from rivers and doesn't go through any form of purification, so it would seriously harm the animals.

And yes there is the issue of impending on people's rights, but really, all environmental laws do that to some extent, as well as fluoride water.

But its too dangerous as long as they use such primitive sources of water.

And forcing birth control on them would be just a temporary solution anyway, their populations drops, at first the economy rises,, then as the current working population becomes aged and the dramatically reduced child population becomes workers, the economy crashes, here is when you must remove the birth control. Then the old people die and the economy sky rockets, and the attack on nature ceases. Then they go back to having twenty children families, and next two generations, they are back where they started, destroying the ecosystem to support their ridiculously oversized population.

And in the end you have solved nothing.

They would need to accept birth control themselves and for that you would need to alter their culture. And since that can't happen, there really is nothing to do. They are just going to utterly annihilate the jungles, unless of course the UN gets involved and orders soldiers placed to protect the remaining jungles.

there are a multitude of causes for our environmental problems. and some of them are only problems for those who dont feel like adapting. we have always been adaptable creatures and even pride our selves on that fact. i think that we need to continue to adapt as well as be wiser with the resources we have.

That is not an answer, you realize that right?

Anyway, imo pollution is going to solve itself, as pollution is little more then wasted potential resources. And its just good business to make the best use of ones resources.

The depletion of natural resources is really a bigger issue and I see no way to solve that. Even if the entire world was living thriftily, taking no baths, walking everywhere, not using clothing, sleeping on the ground and generally just using as few resources as possible to survive.

The population can't be supported without fertilizers and pesticides, pesticides and fertilizers require use of nonrenewable resources, as all the renewable resources require lots of land and fertilizers and pesticides themselves.

So unless we go out into the universe, I believe we are going to eventually run out, ad when that happens, the world is going to starve and the population will drop down to about 4 billion, which is the number of people that can be supported with only minimal pesticides and insecticides.