My Historical Analysis on three events that caused lost of rights in USA

[Moghedien]

To rebel againt a tryrannical Government is not treason. And i also said that this should only be an option after all political means have been exhausted. But what people don't realize is that there rights are being slowly taken away in the name of fighting terrorism or the healthcare bill.

If tyranny and Oppression comes to this land it will be in the guise of fighting a foriegn enemy." -James Madison

Look how many rights United states citizens have lost since the War on Terror. If we open up the constitution up for debate it could do more harm then good. They could once and for all severly limit the rights we have. The supreme court was reviewing whether individuals have the right to bear arms. and just 5-4 they ruled that indeed individuals have the right. That right could have been lost forever. Historically if you look at countries that have been disarmed they then turned into dictatorships. The founding fathers new this and that is why we have the rights we do today.

[Gnerphk]

This has been the case in every major war fought by this country. I can think of examples in every conflict excepting the Spanish-American war, and that's likely just because I haven't read much on it of late.

The Revolution of 1776 was an unpopular one; only about one in three residents actually supported it. The conflict shortly after against the French, the suppression of the Vermont secession, the Whiskey Rebellion, 1812, Andy Jackson's war in Florida, Mexico, the Aroostook War, and certainly the Civil War -- all of these were legendary for the reduction of the rights of those in the area of combat. It's arguable that the Civil War was entirely devoted to the suppression of the rights of the entire population in order to bring liberty to a sizeable fraction - ironic, and I offer no comments on moral justification here.

The point is, war makes demands, and weak leaders often bend or crumble under the pressure. American citizens of Japanese descent were interned en masse on the west coast during World War II, and during WWI similar oppressions were carried out against German-Americans.

The question then ought to be, how much of our individual liberties ought we voluntarily surrender in order to preserve public safety?

My response? SURRENDER NONE*.

----------------
*An excellent book, and with some relevance. Read it.

[Cosmic Fury]

It all comes down to the choice of freedom or security.

How much freedom will you sacrifice to stay completely and totally secure from those who wish to hurt you???

[Hussein]

if america rebels other countries will come and take us over? and anyway who wants a dude blowing up stuff using his underwear?

[Skirata]

To rebel againt a tryrannical Government is not treason.

It's only treason if you fail.

And i also said that this should only be an option after all political means have been exhausted. But what people don't realize is that there rights are being slowly taken away in the name of fighting terrorism or the healthcare bill.

If tyranny and Oppression comes to this land it will be in the guise of fighting a foriegn enemy." -James Madison

Look how many rights United states citizens have lost since the War on Terror. If we open up the constitution up for debate it could do more harm then good. They could once and for all severly limit the rights we have. The supreme court was reviewing whether individuals have the right to bear arms. and just 5-4 they ruled that indeed individuals have the right. That right could have been lost forever. Historically if you look at countries that have been disarmed they then turned into dictatorships. The founding fathers new this and that is why we have the rights we do today.

The loss of rights may not necessarily imply that a government may be unjust or "tyrannical."

if america rebels other countries will come and take us over? and anyway who wants a dude blowing up stuff using his underwear?

If America rebels against what? As for your last statement regardingexplosive underwear it is a legitimate weapon and one most Americans would be using if the roles were reversed. Terrorism is a legitimate weapon for any nation or organization to use and it usually works.

[Gnerphk]

Unpopular though the conclusion may be, I would concur: Terrorism is usually a standard tactic in wartime. Of course, outside of a war it's unacceptable; the definition of a revolution is ambiguous.

As well, I would agree that "it's only treason if you fail". Revolution, regardless of the provocation, is always treason against the established rule.

I'm adding rep; that's how much I agree.

[Rodri]

It's only treason if you fail.

I agree, but perhaps for different reasons.

The loss of rights may not necessarily imply that a government may be unjust or "tyrannical."

I disagree.
If a 'leadership' claims to be "immune from prosecution" under the same laws that it imposes upon it's own citizens, or in the case of the USA, that it can act in ways that reduce the liberties of it's people that are enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, then I believe that is the very definition of tyranny.

Terrorism is a legitimate weapon for any nation or organization to use and it usually works.

I do not agree with this at all.
Whilst I agree that violent methods may be legitimate methods in certain circumstances, such as in defence of freedom, independence and peace, I do not agree that terrorism as it is defined here is at all legitimate under any circumstances. Terrorists are criminals and should be prosecuted as such, no matter who they are.

I will go even further.
One definition of terrorism; "the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes." may well suggest that a Government or organization that instills fear into it's own or other populations by any means (legal or illegal) is indeed performing terrorist acts themselves and should also be liable to prosecution as terrorists and criminals.

[Cosmic Fury]

Wall of text warning!

For the purposes of this thread being better, I'll just post the Declaration of Independence here...yes, the entire thing.

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his

Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public
Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny,
already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.


We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

Note to Mods, Senior Mods, and Reps: This post is for purposes of this thread ONLY, and isn't intended to be used for political debate. If it is, please delete the whole post. Thank you.

~Jurnis

taken off the following website: http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/

(used for documenting purposes only, and is not an advertisement.)

[Cosmic Fury]

That document above is pretty much the rights that Americans are supposed to have.

If these rights are violated, then we have the stated right (given in this same document) to change our government to address this problem.



If a government oppresses the people, then it doesn't deserve to exist, and should be dissolved and remade.

[Rodri]

Thank you Jurnis.
This is the relevant section of the document I think, in regards to this debate:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

As this is the relevant section from the US Constitution:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

And because the Bill of Rights (first 10 amendments) are all relevant here they are:

The Bill of Rights: A Transcription

The Preamble to The Bill of Rights

Congress of the United States
begun and held at the City of New-York, on
Wednesday the fourth of March, one thousand seven hundred and eighty nine.

THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.

RESOLVED by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, two thirds of both Houses concurring, that the following Articles be proposed to the Legislatures of the several States, as amendments to the Constitution of the United States, all, or any of which Articles, when ratified by three fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of the said Constitution; viz.

ARTICLES in addition to, and Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America, proposed by Congress, and ratified by the Legislatures of the several States, pursuant to the fifth Article of the original Constitution.

Note: The following text is a transcription of the first ten amendments to the Constitution in their original form. These amendments were ratified December 15, 1791, and form what is known as the "Bill of Rights."
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Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
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Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
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Amendment III
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
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Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
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Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
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Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
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Amendment VII
In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
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Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
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Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
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Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

I don't think it's too political to point out that many of these rights are being placed under threat or have been totally ignored in recent times and by the Federal Government of the USA. The reasons why these restrictions were placed upon federalism usurping the rights of the states and the people are still relevant, if not even more so in recent times. I am an outsider and yet even I can see things that are happening that just should not be allowed if the spirit of these documents was being followed in good faith in recent times. It is not just the current administration but also previous ones that have acted in ways that could only be construed as unconstitutional.

If both the major parties are going to act in this way, then the first option is to cast your vote for either minor parties or independent candidates. The major parties will always try to say that a vote for a minor party or an independent is a wasted vote but that is simply a lie. If there are enough independents and minor parties elected to hold the balance of power then the duopoly is broken and the people will have a voice again.

This is the current situation on a federal level here in Australia as neither major party could form a government after the recent federal election, they both had to look to independent members and the Green Party for support to form a government. That support is conditional and can be removed at any time, forcing the Prime Minister to call a new election. The Australian system is different from the US system as our 'leader', the Prime Minister is not elected as the President of the USA is but rather as a candidate in their own seat and then by elected members of their party in caucus.