The Waco and Ruby Ridge Incident

[Moghedien]

Here is a controversial topic for you guys. Was the wrong approach taken in siezing the Waco compound and in trying to arrest the Weaver family in Ruby Ridge. A recap of the Waco texas incident and Ruby ridge here are some links
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege

[Gnerphk]

I remember both incidents quite clearly, but I'll read summaries just to refresh.

-back-

From a purely pragmatic standpoint, it seems evident that the approaches chosen in these instances were ineffective, inefficient, and dangerous. Bear in mind, I do not speak here of the specific laws enforced; as well, I offer no new comments on gun control or the freedom of religion. Instead, I wish to focus on the effectiveness with which the law was attempted to be enforced.

Ideally, a law enforcement officer will not attempt to confront a suspect who is armed and appears willing to employ violent means to resist arrest. Instead, efforts should be made to catch the subject off-guard, unarmed, perhaps even asleep or unconscious. The exception to this is when public safety is at risk; at that time, an officer of the law is justifiable in placing himself and others at risk in an attempt to protect other members of the public.

In neither case was there sufficient justification for blockade or assault. There was no measurable threat to the public; innocents were not in immediate danger.

A more appropriate solution in the case of Randy Weaver would have been to send a pair of officers directly to the cabin; if the charges against him had merit, this would have been the appropriate course of action, and if they did not, there would have been no appreciable danger.

The Branch Davidian compound is another story. Allegations of child abuse, statutory rape, and weapons violations were serious matters, and it could be argued that there was an ongoing danger to the residents. However, as the leaders of the group were frequently absent from the compound, it would have been wiser to apprehend them at that time and execute the search warrent while the group was leaderless. Of course, this would have created some interesting legal problems with the evidence thus collected; however, it would have been worth some additional preparation to ensure the strict legality of both actions.

Several courts have ruled in favor of Randy Weaver and his family. In the situation in Waco, the residents seem to have violated several laws during the opening minutes of the standoff and subsequent use of force by law enforcement officers was arguably justifiable. Even so, the situations have in common that the plans for the apprehension of suspects were poorly conceived and executed.

[Moghedien]

I agree i think the casualty rate in the Waco Incident was too high. Many woman and children were killed that i would say were "Innoccent" and then Randy Weaver's daughter was shot. Were those avoidable i believe so especialy the death of the daughter at Ruby Ridge. Waco is harder to know. Using Armored vehicles seem a little excesive...

[Mopster]

What happened?

[Gnerphk]

Read the articles on Wikipedia. Incidentally, I think it was Weaver's son that got shot.

[Moghedien]

oh and it was his wife too

"As the three ran back to the house, Horiuchi fired again at Kevin Harris as he ran away, but this time hit Weaver's wife Vicki in the head as she held their 10-month-old daughter Elishiba at the door"

"In August 1995, the federal government avoided trial on a civil lawsuit filed by the Weavers, by awarding the three surviving daughters $1,000,000 each and Randy Weaver $100,000 over the deaths of Sammy and Vicki Weaver."

[Gnerphk]

Scary.

I'd like to take a moment to mention that I don't think the Weavers responded in the best possible way to the law enforcement officers. This being said, there are few people who would be in a similar situation that would respond in any better way; many of us would do far worse.

Law enforcement operations in general should be better planned and executed. In specific, of course, I'd like to propose that laws against "permissive" crimes are intrinsically flawed and ought not be enforced at all -- and, in general, that a lot of trouble can be avoided by full and open communication at the outset. In this instance, a simple letter would have avoided the whole problem.

[Moghedien]

I agree better communication needs to be addressed. In the weaver family case they told Randy the wrong court date. When Randy failed to appear a bench warrant was issued. The judge became aware of that the letter had the wrong date and still refused to reschuldue and pull the bench warrant. There were many blunders on both parties side that could have been avoided and the final outcome might have been diffrent.

[John Adams]

Oddly, I was reading about both yesterday. I believe that the police response in both is justified.

It is easy for us to sit around and play arm-chair general (or in this case, sniper, or policeman). And whine on about how deadly the methods used by the police were.

A cop does not know if they will make it out of a situation alive. Remember, even a simple traffic stop can turn deadly. What really sickens me is that these people were effectively paid for killing a United States Marshal (or other member of the police force).

~John

[Moghedien]

I disagree the Weavers did not kill the Marshal it was the weavers friend Harris who fired the shots. And what would you do if an armed man dressed in camoflauge popped out of the bushes? They were paid for the death of Sammy Weaver and Vicki. They were also found NOT GUILTY and the rest were thrown out. The whole incident started with a land dispute with his nieghbor. The nieghbor lost and called the FBI, ATF, and police making allegations that proved to be false. It was a huge blunder for law enforcement.