The Waco and Ruby Ridge Incident

[rasterbee]

that does not justify killing a kid and Randy's wife.

No one said anything surrounding that situation justified killing his child and wife. I think you might have glazed over the part where I clearly said the U.S. paramilitary forces committed murder. It wasn't homicide, it wasn't manslaughter. It wasn't protecting and defending the citizens of the United States. It was murder.

He wasnt a member of the white supremacist movement and the shotgun that was sold was legal.

He may not have currently been a card carrying member of any such organization, but he had been in contact with an undercover gov't agent at activities held by such organizations in regards to performing illegal shotgun modifications, which he agreed to do before going into seculsion.

Remember that The weaver's were found Not Guilty for all serious crimes and then aquited for the rest.

No judgement was made by me on their guilt/innocence in regards to the breaking of any law, save for weapons modifications. The reason Randy was approached by the undercover agent was because he was known to be proficient at this activity. I simply said they were not good people. I find it very hard to come to the defense of someone that acts and thinks in the manner that this man, and as a result, his family did.

The gov't most definitely overreacted, but did so on purpose as a message to others like Randy.

Waco is a diffrent story but i believe they could have done it in a way that would have minimized casualties. Many woman and children died in waco.

I think it is generally agreed that the gov't forces initiated the gun fight, the initial evidence found on the front door was so damning that it had to be "accidentily misplaced". But the fire itself, the cause of the majority of the deaths, appears to have been started from inside the compound by members of the sect a la Jonestown. The crazed cult leader's control over his followers was about to be dealt a devestating blow by outside authority, the leader's last option to retain power was through the cleansing act of suicide. Of course, it's not suicide if you are forced at gun point to drink kool-aid or forcibly held down while a large fire is lit in a room you are barricaded inside.

After the initial gun fire at Waco, I don't think much else could have been done in the way of getting Koresh to release his captives. Koresh personally knew several of the undercover agents, he KNEW they were agents, and had gone target practice shooting with them several times, the last being just days before the trouble escalated. They were in contact with him via phone after the lockdown of Mount Carmel, and Koresh was not going to give them what they wanted. Art Bell, from Coast to Coast AM (a show Koresh was known to listen to almost every night), had religious scholars on his radio program for days trying to communicate with Koresh and change his interpretation of certain passages of the Bible that Koresh believed told him that a) He was Jesus. b) He should lock himself and his followers away from the outside world, and c) When they finally come for him, they will all give their mortal bodies to the Lord.

But again, the gov't overreacted and the way they acted was intended as a message. Like I said in the post you responded to, these are just inherently controversial topics. In both situations, all parties involved were in the wrong. Unfortunately, in both situations, one of those parties was immensely better equipped and more powerful.