The substance of space

[joshy 123]

Fish breathe water.

fish dont breathe water, but their gills make it so they breathe the oxygen in the water

[XxflamesxX]

fish dont breathe water, but their gills make it so they breathe the oxygen in the water

oooh i missed that lol Yes the gills filter the oxygen out of the wate your right there.

[Starr Spark]

I think there is something in Space, It is unlikely not to be Like you said a unknown gas or compound, I cant shed light on what compound it is however, as it is unknown and my brain is just to ickle to try and guess what it could be. Like Air, it will most likely have a makeup of gasses, however we can all guess with much conifdence that the make up is nothing like the compound make up that Air its self has or we would be able to surive in it. If there was nothing there what so ever, Paritcals and such would rush to fill the empty gap.

There has to be particles THERE in order to fill the empty gap, as it were. And there are particles of things in space, floating freely.... just not a lot of them. Check rasterbee's post. Over time, particles tend to gather from gravitational pull, gathering in concentrations rather than by themselves.

I think of it as a glass in the water, upend a glas thats in water and slowly take it out and you will notice that the water level inside of the glass is much higher then the level of the water in the container/bowl/puddle/toilet (what ever you chose to run this test in!) but as soon as you break the air lock, the water drops and Air which has a lesser density rushes to fill the gap made.
So something must be filling the space in ... space. imo.

Uhh... what?

Techinally, Some fish Do Fly through water, the motions that their body makes mimic a bird, Its like saying penguins dont fly... They do, just under water.
You are correct in saying about the density however as I think the way Rota ment fish 'fly' is the point you were trying to combat.
Its not that fish are less dense then water, as they are not, Its just as a mass water can support them. Our air cannot support our weight.
Birds are denser then Air, yet can still fly. They have the body shape and the power in the wings to propell themselfs and cause air currents to keep them aloft. Also their bones are thin to cut down on weight.
A bumblebee should not be able to fly, from an engerining point of few it is IMPOSSIBLE that a bumble can get airborn let alone fly. Their body is the wrong shape, size, proportions. And up until recently no one knew how they did it, it wasnt until they were able to flim them in such slow motion they could watch the wing movements lost to a normal eye it is so fast. [Try and watch a BBC program called Invisable world - I think its the speed editon]

I'm not trying to say that fish only float in water cause they are less dense, I'm saying that they must propel themselves through their "atmosphere" of water. Your details make my point of propulsion. We cannot fly without help because we are heavier... more dense. If most fish stopped swimming, they'd start sinking.

A Creature could only live in Space if their was food or water to live on, both of which cannot be provided in space. There maybe a creature [like a cockroach as they can survive a nuclear bomb] which could surive in the 'Air' makeup of space, but without the food an water elements we may never be able to test this. Plants and such life need our plannets air so wouldnt be able to provide a food source.

Actually, we don't know what other lifeforms may need to survive on. There may be creatures that survive purely on the energy of light (which, if something is to live in space, that might have to be the case).

fish dont breathe water, but their gills make it so they breathe the oxygen in the water

Ah, yes, so sorry, but you know what I mean =)

However, they still need the water element. They cannot breathe straight air, usually, except in such cases like that odd fish thing posted earlier.

[XxflamesxX]

Your details make my point of propulsion. We cannot fly without help because we are heavier... more dense. If most fish stopped swimming, they'd start sinking.

Im not trying to prove anyone right or wrong, im just discusing thoughts. However i will say, Fish wont sink if they stopped swiming. Just like if we lie in the sea, we float. The water can support their weight, They propell themselfs to move at a greater spead.

Actually, we don't know what other lifeforms may need to survive on. There may be creatures that survive purely on the energy of light (which, if something is to live in space, that might have to be the case).

I was speaking interms of the life forms currently on our planet and working from the baiscs of life here. Every living thing on this plannet needs 3 things to survie:

1. Food
2. Air
3. Water

And that goes for almost everything on this planet, whether its animal, insect, or plant. Apart from mabey micro-organisms [Virus/Bacteria/plankton ect]. I would have to look through my micro-biology text from college to double check that.

I personaly cant see how any living thing that is not a mirco-organisum could live anywhere without food, weather its from Earth or not. And generally, if there is micro-organisms somewhere there is a chance for more intelegent, evoled life forms to live also. Maybe in a few millions of years. Its why they look for signs of water on plannets, or signs their was water.

Im not saying that some living thing couldnt be up there, im just saying i feel if there is its no more then a micro-organisms, but that in its self would be ground breaking dicovery its self to make.


Edit: Micro-organisms are not always classed as 'Living' However as they have a nucleus not a brain. [forgot that bit lol!]

[Starr Spark]

Im not trying to prove anyone right or wrong, im just discusing thoughts. However i will say, Fish wont sink if they stopped swiming. Just like if we lie in the sea, we float. The water can support their weight, They propell themselfs to move at a greater spead.

Actually, whether fish or humans sink or float depends on some factors.

It's easier to float on saltwater, because the water is more dense than fresh water (cause of all that salt).

Humans will typically float because their fat cells cause them to be less dense than water. Heavily muscular people with little fat are likely to sink unless they tread water. For once, my fat has a purpose other than over-insulating me on hot Texas days (if stranded in the middle of the ocean I shall likely die of thirst or shark attack or whatnot rather than drowning... yippee).

Not all fish would sink, but some would (hence why I didn't say all fish); it depends. Gravity is in inexorable force, always working on us. Ever seen fish sleep? Some stay floating, but some sorta rest down at the bottom--for some of those, it's protection, but for others a reduction in swimming propulsion while resting means they're gonna drift down anyways. And I've had fish over the years... some sink when they don't flip their little fins enough.

When dead, bodies sink or float depending on factors... that are kind of icky, let someone else explain that if they want.

[Balaam]

Fish do not "fly" through their atmosphere simply because they are less dense than water--it's also because they have a biological means of propulsion that utilizes the concentrations of their "atmosphere"--their fins push against the water, or they can take water in and shoot it out in one direction.

Techinally, Some fish Do Fly through water, the motions that their body makes mimic a bird, Its like saying penguins dont fly... They do, just under water.

flight n.
1. The motion of an object in or through a medium, especially through the earth's atmosphere or through space.
2. The act or process of flying through the air by means of wings.



it may not technically be flight but when I was diving off the barrier reef and saw these guys it looked like flight to me

[Starr Spark]

flight n.
1. The motion of an object in or through a medium, especially through the earth's atmosphere or through space.

By this definition, people CAN fly. Especially if I push them off something really high.

Anyone wish to fly now?

[Rota]

I was always under the impression that space was a super-thin amount of hydrogen, of a density like one molecule per cubic centimeter, or something equally crazy-low. Just as our atmosphere is less dense than the fish's "atmosphere" or water, so is there space that's the same matter, but much less dense than our own atmosphere.

I understand that there are trace amounts of molecules in space, I'm not talking about that. I'm thinking that there is a material that makes up the void. The idea I have is that there is NO free space anywhere. Underwater, we are swimming through water. On land we are swimming through air. In space we are swimming through _?_?_?_?_?_. This substance would be so small, that it literally fills in EVERY gap in existence. The space between water/air molecules is filled with this substance. Everywhere we think there is nothing, is this substance. When scientists suck the air out of a vacuum chamber, it is actually filled with this substance.

The trace amounts of hydrogen floating freely in space would be akin to water vapor floating in the air. The air has not become water, yet there is water in it.

Is this "something" actually dark matter? Or is dark matter another substance that you occasionally find floating around in the substance of space.



The following is a bunch of things I wrote in a discussion with KA in the bar long, long ago...
(substitute "dark matter" with "substance of space" as needed)

For the longest time I could not get how space/time bends with mass. I knew it was true, because very smart people I trusted said so. I just couldn't visually wrap my head around "why" it bends. Then I came up with the sponge analogy... (hear me out before laughing )

Don't think of space as a big "nothing," think of it as a sponge. Now take a ball bearing and place it in the middle of the sponge. What happens? The sponge conforms around the ball bearing, it bends around the mass of the object. BUT, right at the surface of the ball bearing the sponge becomes denser. Because, those fibers of the sponge want to go to their natural state of rest in the middle of the area the ball bearing occupies. The fibers of the sponge PUSH on anything with mass that takes up the space they want to occupy.
... gravity.
It's not the force of the earth pulling us down, but the force of space pushing us into the object with mass. Maybe dark matter is the fibers that make up the sponge. Ignore the fact that sponges have holes, there are substances with sponge-like properties that aren't full of holes like swiss cheese. Feel free to substitute that into the analogy if it's more comfortable.


Let's look at something as simple as water.
Go to the great depths of the ocean where there is a large amount of water pressure. Water "pushes" on everything around it and in it. Now let's put a light stone into this water. It's light enough that the currents kick it up off the sea floor and it bobs along merrily. Water is pushing on the rock with the same effects discussed with the sponge on the ball bearing.

Now let's have a grain of sand float by and bump into the rock. The pressure this deep is so great that the sand grain is literally pinned to the rock, never able to float away from it.

Now lets call the water, space. Call the rock, earth. And call the grain of sand, a nitrogen particle.
Now, over time more grains of sand get pinned to the rock. More gas particles get pinned to the earth. Eventually, there are enough particles of various gasses being pressed toward the earth, that an atmosphere is formed.


The analogies seem to work best with things that naturally want to be evenly dispersed.

The sponge fills the volume of it's natural dimensions. You can squeeze it, you can put in a ball bearing, you can flood it with soap. It is always trying to get back to that equilibrium of occupying it's natural, undisturbed dimensions. It wants to occupy its 1"x4"x8" and be left alone. But things keep happening and disturbing it. But, given the opportunity and the absence of disturbance, it settles back into it's equilibrium.


So if Dark Matter naturally wants to settle undisturbed by occupying "EVERYWHERE," then how can we utilize that?
If we could find some way to interact with dark matter, we could do some amazing things.
Let's say we find a way to repel dark matter. If you could put that repellent on the front of a spaceship, it would create a void that the dark matter wants to fill. The dark matter also wants to fill the space that the ship occupies. Since the dark matter can't fill the area at the front because of the repellent, then it may push the ship into that area, so it can fill the area where the back of the ship is.
Viola, dark matter propulsion.

It took us many millennia to learn how to manipulate the natural substance of our atmosphere (air) and become masters of flight. If we can learn how to manipulate the natural substance of space (dark matter?), then we'll become masters of... well I don't know.

Quite frankly, utilizing dark matter opens realms of possibilities beyond space flight. I don't know what would be the defining technology of dark matter.

[Tubbs]

If nothing is the absence of everything then is space really a void?

It still has dimensions and still exists which surely makes it something.
Even if there is nothing in an area the area still exists.

And although i know nothing about "Dark Matter" i do know a little about anti matter, And thats definitely not what fills voids as it Manages to destroy itself as it comes into contact with matter.

[rasterbee]

The idea I have is that there is NO free space anywhere.

In space we are swimming through _?_?_?_?_?_. This substance would be so small, that it literally fills in EVERY gap in existence. The space between water/air molecules is filled with this substance. Everywhere we think there is nothing, is this substance. When scientists suck the air out of a vacuum chamber, it is actually filled with this substance.

Is this "something" actually dark matter? Or is dark matter another substance that you occasionally find floating around in the substance of space.

So if Dark Matter naturally wants to settle undisturbed by occupying "EVERYWHERE," then how can we utilize that?

It took us many millennia to learn how to manipulate the natural substance of our atmosphere (air) and become masters of flight. If we can learn how to manipulate the natural substance of space (dark matter?), then we'll become masters of... well I don't know.

Quite frankly, utilizing dark matter opens realms of possibilities beyond space flight. I don't know what would be the defining technology of dark matter.

Again, from Wikipedia:

According to observations of structures larger than galaxies, as well as Big Bang cosmology interpreted under the Friedmann equations and the FLRW metric, dark matter accounts for 23% of the mass-energy density of the observable universe. In comparison, ordinary matter accounts for only 4.6% of the mass-energy density of the observable universe, with the remainder being attributable to dark energy.[2][3] From these figures, dark matter constitutes 80% of the matter in the universe, while ordinary matter makes up only 20%.

Between dark matter and non-dark matter, about 28% of space is not empty. That leaves a large portion of empty space that wouldn't be able to propel your dark energy powered ship, Rota. I enjoy reading your musings, but I kinda feel as though you are just lumping together two unknowns into one group and assuming they are identical. If/where dark matter does exist, it does not exist throughout the entire universe in all places where non-dark matter is not present. Unless there is compelling evidence to the contrary, it is very hard to discredit the theory that large portions of space are comprised of a void/vacuum.