The substance of space

[rasterbee]

I'm not following you here.

I'll admit, I'm not a scientist, nor do I have a very scientific leaning mind. I'm a cartographer, and I stick to mainly terrestrial areas. How does linking me to an article about density answer my question of "Are you actually saying that 0% of space is empty?" The only thing I saw on that page that suggests an answer was the density of interstellar medium (90% H, 10% He).

I need you to say more in order for this conversation to work. I have no training or education in these fields, if you do...please speak up and share you knowledge. Don't just run away because you misread the tone of one of my previous sentences and assumed I was freaking out and flaming you.

edit: Oh crap, I just checked japanpimp's status and he is replying to this thread.

edit2: Oh crap some more, he's still replying to this thread. I'm frightened that his reply will include the sentence "And dark energy is the the MAIN REASON why Evony needs to recalibrate the defenses on historical cities to make less defendable and easier to capture from other players.

[Transcend]

Density is mass per unit volume. Once you understand this you'll have the answer to your question.

If you still have a little difficulty, take population density for example.

I'm not giving you the answer flat out because I think learning for yourself is more fulfilling.

And I do apologize if I misread your tone and seem snappy.

[japanpimp]

I was pondering the composition of the universe tonight. I was pondering a great ponder on the subject of dark matter, and what it is. What is it it made out of? I began to think about water and fish.

Fish live in water, it is the "atmosphere" they dwell in. We live in air, that is the atmosphere that humans dwell in. To a fish, the water level is the ceiling to their atmosphere. Beyond it, is some unknown environment and certain death. To a human, the exosphere is the outermost layer of "air," and thus is the ceiling to our atmosphere. Beyond it, is some unknown environment and certain death.

So, fish is to water, as human is to air.
We don't really perceive air in a tangible sense, because we exist in it's constant presence. I would guess that fish don't really perceive water in a tangible sense, because they exist in it's constant presence. Basically, fish "fly" through the atmosphere of their world.

To a fish, they have no clue what air is, because they have no technology. They only know that air is "the great beyond" that is utterly fatal. We never even knew that the air was "something" until recently. We knew we needed it to breathe, and thus live. But, we did not know that air was full of oxygen molecules and various other gases, and that was what we needed to breathe. As far as we knew, the air was "nothing" at all. We have only recently gained the technology to perceive that the air is made of molecules. We only know that space is "the great beyond" that is utterly fatal. We call it a vacuum, and that's true because there is no air pressure. We call it a void, but that may not be true.

Just because there is no air does not that mean it's "nothing" and empty. What if there is "something" that makes up space, just like various gas molecules make up the air? We might simply not have the technology to perceive the substance that makes fills the emptiness of space. One day, we will know that space is made of "_?_?_?_?_?_" just like the day we learned about oxygen molecules.


So here is the discussion:
Do you think space is truly nothing? Are the area between the planets and stars a complete void?
Is space made of something? Just as fish have their atmosphere of water, and we have our atmosphere of air, space is an atmosphere of _?_?_?_?_?_.
I'm not talking about gas clouds or nebulas or objects in space, I know those are "something" for sure. They can be tangibly seen and measured. I'm talking about the vast "nothingness" between all those landmarks.

What theoretical particle might be the substance of space? What would it's properties be?



Side discussion:
We have all these fancy machines that defy gravity by fighting it with propulsion. Fish defy gravity and fly around like superman, simply by being buoyant in their atmosphere. We have hot air balloons that do the same, but they are HUGE, and cumbersome.

Is it possible to become buoyant in air. I don't mean a hot air balloon, I mean like a personal device that affects us the air around us, and thus allows flight like superman? Maybe utilizing the particles of space, we could create something.
If a fish can do it, then so can we.


P.S. I rambled quite a bit there. If anything needs clarification, please let me know.

Oh goodie, brain talk... *takes brain out of head, bites it*
*homer simpson voice* mmmmm.. brainy....

I am a firm believer that there is no such thing as nothing. There is always something whether we are aware of it or not. That being said, there is something in the space between objects in our universe. I have no idea what it is though. Maybe it is something that we will never be able to see or acquire evidence of due to it's nature. Maybe it is just some kind of force that acts like a glue and a repulsing magnent and a organizer. Maybe it is not a particle at all. Maybe it is something else that makes up this "force" or "stuff" that surrounds objects in our universe. MAybe it is space taken up by other dimensions.
Have you ever seen that movie What the Bleep Do We Know? Very interesting. On a atomic level there is tons of space between protons, neurons and so on. No different than the tons of space between stars and planets and other objects in the universe. Nobody knows what the space is between the atomic particles. But it is a fact that protons, neutrons and electrons appear and disappear within the atomic space. And nobody knows where they go or where they come from. There are forces at work which we will never understand or ever be aware of simply because we cannot be aware of everything. Have you ever herd of the Gilfinoqn dimension? Neither have I. But it does not mean it does not exist. Or have you ever herd of a Hyophicoloasitch? Neither have I. Or have you ever herd of a ... "...." (unkown). Neither have I because nobody is aware it even exists.

But I sure would love to know what we will never know. That would be awesome and totally blow my mind. "WTF?!? You mean I am actually living inside of a giant "space worm" and "god" is actually just another human who was the last of the humans and we are all clones of the last human?" WTF?? Humans are all made by John who lives down the street?"????

[rasterbee]

Transcend, you're not answering my question.

I am still contending that portions of space have absolutely nothing in them. Not a single atom, molecule, nor electron. According to what I've read, yes...in the most empty regions of space there are a few sparse hydrogen molecules per cubic meter, but overall space is empty. Population density may say there is 0.1 people per square mile in Montana, but that still leaves a huge portion of the state that is absent from residents.

You said dark energy accounts for all of the non matter/non dark matter area in space. Please elaborate.

[Transcend]

Oh goodie, brain talk... *takes brain out of head, bites it*
*homer simpson voice* mmmmm.. brainy....

I am a firm believer that there is no such thing as nothing. There is always something whether we are aware of it or not. That being said, there is something in the space between objects in our universe. I have no idea what it is though. Maybe it is something that we will never be able to see or acquire evidence of due to it's nature. Maybe it is just some kind of force that acts like a glue and a repulsing magnent and a organizer. Maybe it is not a particle at all. Maybe it is something else that makes up this "force" or "stuff" that surrounds objects in our universe. MAybe it is space taken up by other dimensions.
Have you ever seen that movie What the Bleep Do We Know? Very interesting. On a atomic level there is tons of space between protons, neurons and so on. No different than the tons of space between stars and planets and other objects in the universe. Nobody knows what the space is between the atomic particles. But it is a fact that protons, neutrons and electrons appear and disappear within the atomic space. And nobody knows where they go or where they come from. There are forces at work which we will never understand or ever be aware of simply because we cannot be aware of everything. Have you ever herd of the Gilfinoqn dimension? Neither have I. But it does not mean it does not exist. Or have you ever herd of a Hyophicoloasitch? Neither have I. Or have you ever herd of a ... "...." (unkown). Neither have I because nobody is aware it even exists.

Lol, I do find this to be entertaining because JP is the complete opposite of a skeptic. Quite possibly he would be an interesting read in a philosophical discussion.

Transcend, you're not answering my question.

I am still contending that portions of space have absolutely nothing in them. Not a single atom, molecule, nor electron. According to what I've read, yes...in the most empty regions of space there are a few sparse hydrogen molecules per cubic meter, but overall space is empty. Population density may say there is 0.1 people per square mile in Montana, but that still leaves a huge portion of the state that is absent from residents.

You said dark energy accounts for all of the non matter/non dark matter area in space. Please elaborate.

When you say overall you're getting more specific, which is what I needed. Yes overall it is either luminous matter, dark matter, or dark energy, at least given recent scientific findings. Now there may be some patches where neither is present, I don't know, nor do I have any way of finding out. But overall, yes.

[japanpimp]

@Rota
gawd'damn you Rota. No you got my mind on this today... curse you to hell.

I think it is important for us to not limit our thinking to just 3 & 4th dimension stuff to explain the "space" between things. What are higher dimensions? I dunno. But I think they are just lables for things we have no awarence of or no explination for. So if something is totally unknown, had never entered our minds yet or defies our laws of physics (physics I feel is very limiting) then we call it another dimension because it does not fit in our understanding of the 3&4th dimensions.

Now, this "space" between things... well, the things are stuff like particles, protons, neutrons and even super groups of them that make up molecules, elements, humans, planets and soloar systems, etc... A planet is a thing. But it is a collection of tons of particles. So are we. And there is tons of space between particles and planets and even humans. There is even tons of space between air molecules and water molecules.

What is this space? We must not limit ourselves to define it. So to call it particles is not right. It may be made up of things from various "dimensions"... things that our present understanding of physics cannot explain or even detect. And that is cool. Because it means we can make it anything we want. Rota, think outside of physics. Whatever you feel makes sense to explain this space then persue it. You may just come up with some mind blowing theories that make Stephen Hawkins look like a moron.

Lol, I do find this to be entertaining because JP is the complete opposite of a skeptic. Quite possibly he would be an interesting read in a philosophical discussion.

Thanks Tsnap. I get it from my dad.... damn him... damn him to hell...

[Rodri]

Space can be a difficult concept to come to terms with. We live in space. There is space all around us and at a particle level, there is space inside everything we think of as solid or real. In fact, the sub atomic particles are so small and the space between them so large, that in many ways the World and the entire Universe is mostly space and not much else, despite all outer apearances. The bonds between particles are energy, so you might almost say that the Universe as we percieve it is energy and empty space.

In many ways, there is no difference between outer space and this inner space. Both are the absence of matter. It's more a question of perception.

[japanpimp]

Space can be a difficult concept to come to terms with. We live in space. There is space all around us and at a particle level, there is space inside everything we think of as solid or real. In fact, the sub atomic particles are so small and the space between them so large, that in many ways the World and the entire Universe is mostly space and not much else, despite all outer apearances. The bonds between particles are energy, so you might almost say that the Universe as we percieve it is energy and empty space.

In many ways, there is no difference between outer space and this inner space. Both are the absence of matter. It's more a question of perception.

yes, good conclusion.
But what if it really IS something? What if something really DOES make up the space?

[Starr Spark]

I don't get it. While I believe that there very well be SOMETHING that we cannot see or currently understand that makes up space, why is it so hard for people to think that there might just be NOTHING?

[Rota]

What if the emptiness of space is merely subatomic particles?
Free-floating quarks and gluons that have not become part of an atom, yet. That could be the key to Star Trek transporter technology. Maybe the nothingness is free floating micro-atomic particles? An unknown set of particles that make up quarks and gluons and such.