Girl Guides Controversy

[Bree Fletcher]

...things that aren't natural...

Serious question. What part about it would you define as unnatural?

And as far as the "sexism" thing goes, I do not believe that is an issue. It is a form of discrimination, but on a basis of gender identity rather than gender itself.

EDIT:

Any other way you look at it, a person with a male reproductive organ believing that they are a female are either living in denial or have some other issues.

...People say it a lot around here, but you honestly do make me wish there was still red rep.

[Lucas101]

Serious question. What part about it would you define as unnatural?

And as far as the "sexism" thing goes, I do not believe that is an issue. It is a form of discrimination, but on a basis of gender identity rather than gender itself.

EDIT:

...People say it a lot around here, but you honestly do make me wish there was still red rep.

As much as I hate doing this let me answer your serious question with another serious question, what part about this would you define as natural?

A person is born as one gender, which means that for lack of better term, 'nature' has decided him/her to be this natural gender type. As soon as this person starts seeing him/herself as the other gender instead of the way that s/he naturally is by definition this person is no longer acting naturally. Also what part of a 7 year old making up his mind that he is a female rather then male do you find natural?

The sexist part I will refrain from commenting on as I don't know how females feel about this seeing as I am male.

The red rep comment I agree with, when you are red repped for stating your opinion it means the other person either has a very closed mind or can't argue their opinion convincingly. Regarding the later I would honestly expect a bit more from you.

[Bree Fletcher]

As much as I hate doing this let me answer your serious question with another serious question, what part about this would you define as natural?

A person is born as one gender, which means that for lack of better term, 'nature' has decided him/her to be this natural gender type.

The basic problem here is in your anthropomorphizing nature. Nature is not something which tries to do anything. Nature does not care what humans do with their lives. If your "nature" is standing in for another being, so be it and I will not get into that discussion. I will leave right now. But assuming you truly mean nature...

You could claim nature did not give us wings, and therefore we were not meant to fly. Airplanes? Unnatural. Should be banned.

You should claim the only reason there is sexual attraction is because we as animals need to mate and produce offspring. Homosexuality is unnatural, clearly. An argument which is not old. Yet to force them to be anything else would be difficult for the person, to put it lightly.

Gender identity is a large part of people's lives. It will not always match up with what nature gave them physically. It is not a mental disease, as you seem to put it. (and that implication and the hateful language you put toward it, that is what I wanted the red rep for.) If nature were to have an intention as to their gender, why would it not give them a mind to match? It seems much more likely that there was never any intention by anything. traits fall where they may. They don't always match up well, and rather than hating people for whom it did not match up, you should count yourself damn lucky that you happen to be cisgendered.

[Alusair]

I would say that just because someone's body develops one way doesn't always mean the mind will develop the same way.

Many people will claim that things like homosexuality or transexuality are choices, or a sickness, or something like that, but what a lot of people may not realize is that what makes them who they are- their personality, their behaviour, etc.- aren't voluntary choices and decisions on their part, but are dictated by how their mind was formed. There are cases where people's personalities and so forth can radically change from chemical or physical alterations to their brains, against their will, sometimes even without their awareness.

What this means is that if someone's mind develops in a feminine sense, then they will think like a female regardless of what form their physical body takes. This isn't a conscious choice on their part- they can't change the nature of who they are any easier than anyone else.

[Lucas101]

The basic problem here is in your anthropomorphizing nature. Nature is not something which tries to do anything. Nature does not care what humans do with their lives. If your "nature" is standing in for another being, so be it and I will not get into that discussion. I will leave right now. But assuming you truly mean nature...

You could claim nature did not give us wings, and therefore we were not meant to fly. Airplanes? Unnatural. Should be banned.

You should claim the only reason there is sexual attraction is because we as animals need to mate and produce offspring. Homosexuality is unnatural, clearly. An argument which is not old. Yet to force them to be anything else would be difficult for the person, to put it lightly.

Gender identity is a large part of people's lives. It will not always match up with what nature gave them physically. It is not a mental disease, as you seem to put it. (and that implication and the hateful language you put toward it, that is what I wanted the red rep for.) If nature were to have an intention as to their gender, why would it not give them a mind to match? It seems much more likely that there was never any intention by anything. traits fall where they may. They don't always match up well, and rather than hating people for whom it did not match up, you should count yourself damn lucky that you happen to be cisgendered.

I do mean another being, but I like the points you raise so lets assume that I do mean nature ...

Airplanes are man-made a wonderful example of our technological prowess, I fail to see the relevance. If we surgically put wings on our backs and started trying to fly I would be the first to say ban them as they are unnatural.

I was going to bring up that exact argument homosexuality argument, but like you said its been beaten into the ground, and I'm not too sure how relevant it would be in furthering the discussion, rather then completely derailing it.

You took the mental disease thing wrong, but I can see how that happened. I was implying that it is because of authority figures backing off of restricting young persons lifestyle choices that youngsters may be making mistakes that will haunt them later in life.

The major upcoming problem that I am seeing is that you believe its a genetic trait that determines what gender you may or may not be, and I don't. But again for the sake of the argument ...

You say that this is a physical aliment, I say that gender shouldn't determine what you are or what you can accomplish. You make yourself and its choices that determine where you end up. If you make the choice that you want to be identified with the opposite gender then so be it, but by making that choice you are knowingly going to undertake difficulties all along life's long dark twisted path.

If you want to make this choice FULLY aware of the consequences then so be it. But to make this choice when someone is 7 years old and not yet fully aware of what s/he is signing up for?

We have ages where we can vote, to help determine the fate of our country, and this is put in place as anywhere below a certain age we are seen as not being mature or experienced enough to make the 'right' choice. I use this as an example, to show that if we are to be 18 to make a choice as trivial as electing the next person to take our money, is 7 not a little young to be making choices that are going to impact the rest of your life in a profound way?

Also is there any way to enlarge the text box when responding to quotes all this scrolling is time consuming ...

[Bree Fletcher]

I do mean another being

And I'm out. Have fun and goodbye.

[Lucas101]

And I'm out. Have fun and goodbye.

Well that was a waste of 5 mins ...

[eric0095]

Also is there any way to enlarge the text box when responding to quotes all this scrolling is time consuming ...

There's two buttons in the top row of the textbox. When in quick reply mode, they'll be on the far right hand corner. When in advanced mode, they'll be to the far right of the row but not all the way in the corner. They look like this -->

[cenobyte]

I think, if the little boy wants to be a girl guide, let him. Same if a little girl wants to be a boy scout. Sick of gender discrimination and social constructs that benefit no one.

[BigNorr]

While I am all for gender equality and have nothing against homosexuals I am with Lucas on this. It could be very confusing for the little girls when a boy who considers themself a girl decides to join up. Just because you act a certain way does not mean your gender is any different, a man acting like a woman is still a man (though a very feminine one). I know when my sisters were in girl guides they joined to meet other girls to hang around. Not to hang out with dudes who don't know what they are. I believe the age of 7 is too young to truely decide you identify more with the opposite gender as your brain is not fully developed and it is easy to be confused, so truly deciding you are the opposite gender should not be considered a legitmate decision until you have had sufficient time to develop mentally. If they are old enough to get a sex change on their own then it will allow them if they consider themselves female enough to chop their parts off. If they are not that committed then I think they just may be curious or disillusioned with their own gender. I am all for doing what makes you happy but not when it comes to forcing something that may make others uncomfortable when it is the result of a conscious decision to have that lifestyle on others. Maybe create some transgender groups they can all hang out and talk with others feeling the same way they do would be better?