Gun Laws

[Lord Gandalf the Greyhelm]

If what your saying is right then it is ok for me or you to own a nuke so we can protect ourself?

[Lord Gandalf the Greyhelm]

QUOTE=King Alboin;1997425]Inert objects dont kill, they are just a tool for the killer to use.

To say that an inert object is the cause of such horrific deaths, is to day that:

The automobile is to blame, not the drunk driver, or the scapel and forcepts are to blame, not the abortion doctor, or the house fire is to blame, not the arsenist.

Evil is evil, and will find a tool to use in his/her evil act. If you paid attention to where these evil acts were commited, you will notice that there were strict gun laws in place, therebye ostensibly making the innocent, defenseless and innocent.

So no, on more gun laws.

oh ...


[/QUOTE]

If what you are saying is right then it is ok for say me and you to own a nuke, to protect ourselves?[

[King Alboin]

Do you know how to safely operate a nuke? no. Is it legal to privately own a nuke? no. So your answer is, no.

Do bring it back down to reality, will ya?

[acer5200]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2...ck-school.html

There's no guns in China. It's not the guns that do this, it's the people.

On the other hand...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/19...ntcmp=trending

Access to guns is way to easy.

I'll quote somebody who posted about that article there...

"If only that other kid had been packing he could've shot the other kid and avoided this whole tragedy ... oh wait... *rolleyes*"

Is that really what you want KA? The Wild West? Where whoever is packing the best heat will survive and the ones who can't don't?

A complete ban on guns in a country where it's extremely easy to smuggle things in is pointless. I mean clearly if we make drugs like heroin or cocaine illegal, it'll get them off the streets rig---..... Damn. They are illegal. And they're everywhere. Same concept for guns.

[Quantum Leap]

Going to segue from the conversation here a bit ...

Who or what is to blame in the world trade towers trajedies, ...

You and I both know that that topic will just easily go into an ugly political tangent far from the already controversial topic in this thread. No need to throw it into the mix.

Funny how you're the only one suggesting this thread be locked while you're clearly still interested enough to post in it.

[ssfgrgawer]

There used to be a saying here in Aus when John Howard brought in our Overly strict Gun laws: When Guns are outlawed, Olny Outlaws will have Guns.


I myself own a rifle license, and am in the progress of getting a pistol license. I agree 110% with what King Alboin said above. You can load a firearm, Put one in the chamber, and sit it outside on the lawn for 100 years even pull the hammer/bolt/whatever back, and so long as no one ever picks it up, It will NEVER go off. Firearm control is stupid in my opinion, Fair enough, You don't REALLY need an Abrams tank to hunt varmint, but if you have the $ you should have that option in my opinion.

You can load any firearm, put one in the chamber, be it a handgun or a rocket launcher, and leave it sitting in your front yard for 100 years, and provided no one touches the trigger, It will NEVER go off. the Americans were smart enough to put a right to bear arms in there constitution, so the people would always have a way to defend themselves. Australias gun laws are harsh, Rifles are the easyest to get, needing a licence, and to send away a permit to obtain, and have a valid reason to have firearms, IE vermin control hunting or target shooting. We dont get self defense clause. plus you need to have police check your gun safes. Pistols are insanely hard to get, We have to send away for the forms to apply, (takes a week or so) Fill out the form and attach valid reason for owning one target shooting OLNY plus club enrollment details, And after you have sent that away, and are approved, You have to wait 6 MONTHS before you can even think of buying a handgun.

outlawing guns wont do any good what so ever. You will just end up with a bigger illegal gun market and things wont change.

i personally wish Australia had Americas firearms laws. I want to hunt rabbits with an rpg

"If only that other kid had been packing he could've shot the other kid and avoided this whole tragedy ... oh wait... *rolleyes*"

Is that really what you want KA? The Wild West? Where whoever is packing the best heat will survive and the ones who can't don't?

idk about yall would love to be able to carry around a 6 shooter and there are lots of people that need shot, like the Australian parliment for starters...

[Abdiel]

In think there is absolutely no reason for the civilian population of a country to own guns. I hold an American citizenship as well as a British, and I have lived for considerable portions of my life in both countries. In Britain, there are strict gun laws and the homicide rate is a fraction of what it is in the United States. You can't get guns or working cross-bows etc. in Britain without a very strictly controlled permit, and even then, the type of gun you can get is limited to hunting rifles.

[B][COLOR=#000080]Inert objects dont kill, they are just a tool for the killer to use.

I disagree with you completely on this. Guns are by far the easiest weapon to kill someone with. They eliminate the personal element; i.e: the killer does not have to be close to his victim. They eliminate the physical strength element; the killer does not have to overpower his victim, outrun his victim or have the physical strength to stab/beat his victim to death. They also make killing quicker. An average gunman can easily shoot and kill 3-4 people before he has to reload. If someone came into a public place with a knife? He'd probably be overpowered by those 3-4 people in the time it took him to catch and attempt to stab victim #1.

I've seen a few arguments that say, "Well, he/she could just build a bomb." While I admit, building a home bomb is really no more difficult than assembling a computer, I think these arguments over-estiminate the general intelligence level of the American population. In a country where 40% of the population lacks (stat, NYtimes) 9th grade math skills - how many people are really going to assemble their own bomb?

History has shown that gun bans make it easier for criminals. The second you stop law abiding citizens from defending themselves, well....that's when the true colors of people will show.

History has shown nothing of the kind. Here are some recent gun crime statistics by country:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...-with-firearms

Note that the countries without firearm control - i.e. South Africa and the United States have WAY higher gun crime rates than places where it is illegal to own a gun, i.e. All of Western Europe.

[ssfgrgawer]

I disagree with you completely on this. Guns are by far the easiest weapon to kill someone with. They eliminate the personal element; i.e: the killer does not have to be close to his victim. They eliminate the physical strength element; the killer does not have to overpower his victim, outrun his victim or have the physical strength to stab/beat his victim to death. They also make killing quicker. An average gunman can easily shoot and kill 3-4 people before he has to reload. If someone came into a public place with a knife? He'd probably be overpowered by those 3-4 people in the time it took him to catch and attempt to stab victim #1.

You can load any firearm, put one in the chamber, be it a handgun or a rocket launcher, and leave it sitting in your front yard for 100 years, and provided no one touches the trigger, It will NEVER go off.

Answered with one of my own quotes.

[Abdiel]

Answered with one of my own quotes.

My point was not to absolve the killer of personal responsibility, but to illustrate that it is easier for the average Joe to kill someone with a gun than with a knife or a bat or cord etc. It takes a lot of blunt force to punch through a chest cavity with a knife and a lot of precision to slit a throat. The gun as a weapon makes it easier for a killer to act on his desires and harder for others to control him.

[tipperary1]

I feel as if, it strange that people honestly believe anything you do will change these tragedies. If we are honest with ourselves, whether anyone had a gun there at the time or not, do you really believe it would have occurred to them to use it? Self preservation is a human instinct. It takes more than a law to change that. Do you think that the kids from the Columbine incident would have not gone through with the shootings if gun laws changed? Do you really think they would need a gun license to get a gun?

Don't be so naive.

The people who follow the laws are the ones being punished. Not the law-breakers.

while thats all very fine, theres a difference between having to go illegally buy a gun and whatever that process entails and being able to stroll down to a local shop and stock up on a variety of arms. such ready availability is why statistics are showing such high gun crime in countries where there are no laws against them.

If what you are saying is right then it is ok for say me and you to own a nuke, to protect ourselves?[

lol a slightly extreme example.

Funny how you're the only one suggesting this thread be locked while you're clearly still interested enough to post in it.

IBTL memes are more a statement of a thread having a high probability of being locked rather than the poster declaring they feel the thread should be locked.

i knew this thread had a bit of a risk to it when i created it. However i personally was a bit on the fence about the whole gun laws, that there was some merit to the whole self defence argument, and i wanted to see what others thought and perhaps here some statistics. So far so good, between gillivray lucas and abdiel and the stats they posted im kinda leaning towards a complete ban.

so far the thread is skimming the political discussion rules, however safely so, and the thread has not degenerated into "your post is stupid" or "lolwut" and there is actually an interesting debate going on. So on those grounds, there should be no locking of this thread, yet anyway.

History has shown nothing of the kind. Here are some recent gun crime statistics by country:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...-with-firearms

Note that the countries without firearm control - i.e. South Africa and the United States have WAY higher gun crime rates than places where it is illegal to own a gun, i.e. All of Western Europe.

some interesting and shocking stats there, kinda brings things into perspective.