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Thread: Hate to beat a dead horse but wtf devs? Why even allow us to attack other players?

  1. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by kassikas View Post
    This assumes you have 200 barracks, 10 200 attack heroes, or are waiting around to move that 200 attack hero ten times every time you train, and that population figures, which are unknown for you, work as you say they do. Also assumes you have zero taxes and production in any of your cities.

    Tested population respawn on a city with 13k free pop. Came back as ~1300 in 6 mins. Assuming 15k would give you ~1500 every 6 mins, that would double your figures. Full respawn would take an hour, not half an hour. Would have to play in four hour blocks twice a day, more if you do not have 10 heroes with 200 attack and have to make rounds with one hero. That turns Evony into a full time job.

    Additionally, turning off your production would cost you >240 million potential food a day, which on a two day time period tacks on another two hundred and fifty million gold figure to the price tag of this strategy.

    So even at the 2 day time line, we are looking at way over half a billion gold price tag for this tactic, which is ten times your original figure. Plus sixteen hours of tedious annoying work. Few people actually have that set up, and fewer still are going to spend 16 hours online to kill 500k archers.

    And once again, that is assuming everything lines up just how you think. Given that you quoted the price of this attack at ~50 million gold, and it has proven over half a billion, I think it is fair to say that one should reasonably question the claim that it would work exactly as you have outlined.



    Go back and read my argument please. I said that any method for killing 500k archers under current game mechanics is akin to slashing open a body part to stain an enemy's shoes, from a tactical perspective.

    I even conceded that this plan may actually be more viable then other methods.

    But that doesn't change the fact that even if everything lines up all perfectly, which is highly dubious given the notorious inaccuracy of Pokeynomics, it is still not a good idea. At the end of all this, you have still lost far more then your enemy, and you put a huge amount of effort into it.
    Well fine, let's do the numbers thing again:

    On a new account the base time to build a scout is 1min 40sec (100sec)
    The base time to build a Ram is 1hour 15minutes (4500 sec)
    The base time to build a Ballista is 50minutes (3000 sec)

    Obviously a 200 attack hero will benefit the larger build times more than the smaller ones, but I'll concede the point anyway.

    So, w/ lvl 9 MilSci and lvl 9 MetCas we get

    Scout_Build = 100 * .9^9 * .995^200 = 14sec
    Ram_Build = 4500 * .9^9 * .995^200 = 639
    Balli_Build = 3000 * .9^9 * .995^200 = 426

    I won't get into the math of scouts, I'll just concede 3 days to build scouts as a compromise. Full production on, cost of whatever I said before + 250mil food-value I believe you said, just going to use your numbers (actually I'm gonna calc it to be explicit, 2.5mil scouts eat 300,000,000 food per day. So day 1, they eat ~0 food. Day 2 they eat 100mil food, day 3 they eat 200mil food. Total food at end of day 3 when they're all built is ~300mil food. Or 150mil gold. I'll just use your 250mil number to fill in the gaps I didn't account for as they build incremently so no one complains about that).

    EDIT: Aw fuggit I'm gonna do the math for scout building too.
    15k pop / 20 racks = 750 per queue. 750 * 14 = 10,500 sec = 175min = ~3hours. 4 queue slots and a regen time of 1 hour if your numbers are right, you need to come by once an hour for 4 hours every 12 hours. Or you can come by once an hour every 9 hours, or break it up however you like as long as you wait an hour. with 10 cities you need to do this 17 times. Assuming you sleep 8 hours and work 8 hours you can easily break up the remaining 8 hours of your day into queueing units with the 1 hour gap between regens to do other stuff like cook clean eat dinner sex up the woman whatever. Even if you come home to empty queues and spend 3 hours refilling them, then spend 3 hours refilling them before bed only you can easily be done in 3 days. Yeah it's some effort coming back to the puter once an hour I guess, but oh well.

    SO, now we're at rams and ballis, I already worked out the cost of building rams and ballis somewhere earlier, but lets add your build time math.

    Assuming 10 towns, each with 15 lvl 9 barracks (we can do 20 if you really insist, but the math isn't as nice so I'm going with 15) a piece and 15000 population we can queue up a maximum of 15000 / 15 / 10 = 100 rams per barrack. At a time of 100 * 639 = 63900 seconds per queue (1065 minutes, 17hours 45mins a piece), spread across 10 cities we have our 10k rams in a day.

    Now for the 60k ballis, 200 queued at a time, 200*426 = 85,200seconds (1420 minutes, 23hours 30 minutes). Spread across 10 cities we could have ourselves ready in 46.25 hours (2days). We now also have a 3 day build time. End of day 1 10k rams are eating 24mil food/day, End of day 2, 10k rams 30k ballis are eating 60000000food /day.

    So we have a final cost of... 51mil for the rams, 210mil for the ballis + 42mil food-value vs. 51mil for the scouts + 250mil food-value. Factor in transit costs (double+ food consumption for mechs on attack due to the current bug, with huge increases in food consumption as your distance to target increases for mechs, with nothing comparable for scouts) and they even out as I said at the start.

    Ah you know what, lets just do that calc too. To hit an enemy at 10miles away with my current HBR 8, it takes 1hr 21min; 121 food / balli, and 242 food / ram. And it takes 10 scouts with Compass 7 1min 59sec; 3 food (1 scout says 0 food so I have to use more).

    So 242*10,000 = 2420000 food + 121 * 60000 = ~10,000,000 food.
    3*10000 = 30000 food * 25 waves = 750,000 food to launch.

    So 1,000,000 food per mile for the mechs, and 75k food per mile for scouts.
    (a 50 mile attack would have a net food diff of 50mil - 3.75mil = 46mil food, or 23million gold).

    Sloan posted a report where that force killed 150k archers (I will ignore the scrub units killed though I will admit they can be a factor, but technically they had 67k ballis, 11k rams, and also 4.5k pults instead of what I actually calc'd so lets call it even) and you still have a 333% increase in efficiency with scout bombs.
    Even factoring in being slouchish on building the scouts, so you can sleep and work and have a life. Pokeynomics or not that's just numbers there.

    Your half-billion gold tag forces me to do something I never said you had to do which was turn off production. I have 15k idle d00ds, 17 racks (tearing down some buildings now, remember its day 12? 13? for me only) and 400k of wood production right now. I prefer you not add your own factors to my calcs if they're unnecessary.

    I'm sure I have more points but I'm lost in the math again. Oh yeah, something about how you lose more than your enemy only if you don't factor in plundering all their shiz, taking and barbing their town, and adding in the distinct joy of finally finally finally vanquishing your enemy. If you didn't hate that guy why would you have attacked him in the first place given current defense mechanics? Yes, I will concede to you that attacking someone sucks, but it is not impossible, and although you say that you do nothing but stain their shoes, no one has 500k archers in every town. This method is specifically for conjunction with real army attacking after clearing the town (yes that is another cost if you want to split hairs) of the insanely overpowered archer defense.
    Last edited by pokey; 06-26-2009 at 03:20 PM. Reason: Keep adding more math for exactitude

  2. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sloan View Post
    Good Idea, I'm basing my estimates on
    battle6.evony.com/default.html?logfile/ea/80/2b/a9/ea802ba98086d838e2244a2bff6a5c88.xml
    I can't say for certin that the rams were the cause of the win, but it'd make sense, as I've seen 60k ballista attack someone before, and kill 60k archers.
    Just as a P.S. that report is pretty impressive to me. Nice to see some killing at least with a more standard army.

  3. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokey View Post
    Well fine, let's do the numbers thing again:

    On a new account the base time to build a scout is 1min 40sec (100sec)
    The base time to build a Ram is 1hour 15minutes (4500 sec)
    The base time to build a Ballista is 50minutes (3000 sec)

    Obviously a 200 attack hero will benefit the larger build times more than the smaller ones, but I'll concede the point anyway.

    So, w/ lvl 9 MilSci and lvl 9 MetCas we get

    Scout_Build = 100 * .9^9 * .995^200 = 14sec
    Ram_Build = 4500 * .9^9 * .995^200 = 639
    Balli_Build = 3000 * .9^9 * .995^200 = 426

    I won't get into the math of scouts, I'll just concede 3 days to build scouts as a compromise. Full production on, cost of whatever I said before + 250mil food-value I believe you said, just going to use your numbers (actually I'm gonna calc it to be explicit, 2.5mil scouts eat 300,000,000 food per day. So day 1, they eat ~0 food. Day 2 they eat 100mil food, day 3 they eat 200mil food. Total food at end of day 3 when they're all built is ~300mil food. Or 150mil gold. I'll just use your 250mil number to fill in the gaps I didn't account for as they build incremently so no one complains about that).

    EDIT: Aw fuggit I'm gonna do the math for scout building too.
    15k pop / 20 racks = 750 per queue. 750 * 14 = 10,500 sec = 175min = ~3hours. 4 queue slots and a regen time of 1 hour if your numbers are right, you need to come by once an hour for 4 hours every 12 hours. Or you can come by once an hour every 9 hours, or break it up however you like as long as you wait an hour. with 10 cities you need to do this 17 times. Assuming you sleep 8 hours and work 8 hours you can easily break up the remaining 8 hours of your day into queueing units with the 1 hour gap between regens to do other stuff like cook clean eat dinner sex up the woman whatever. Even if you come home to empty queues and spend 3 hours refilling them, then spend 3 hours refilling them before bed only you can easily be done in 3 days. Yeah it's some effort coming back to the puter once an hour I guess, but oh well.

    SO, now we're at rams and ballis, I already worked out the cost of building rams and ballis somewhere earlier, but lets add your build time math.

    Assuming 10 towns, each with 15 lvl 9 barracks (we can do 20 if you really insist, but the math isn't as nice so I'm going with 15) a piece and 15000 population we can queue up a maximum of 15000 / 15 / 10 = 100 rams per barrack. At a time of 100 * 639 = 63900 seconds per queue (1065 minutes, 17hours 45mins a piece), spread across 10 cities we have our 10k rams in a day.

    Now for the 60k ballis, 200 queued at a time, 200*426 = 85,200seconds (1420 minutes, 23hours 30 minutes). Spread across 10 cities we could have ourselves ready in 46.25 hours (2days). We now also have a 3 day build time. End of day 1 10k rams are eating 24mil food/day, End of day 2, 10k rams 30k ballis are eating 60000000food /day.

    So we have a final cost of... 51mil for the rams, 210mil for the ballis + 42mil food-value vs. 51mil for the scouts + 250mil food-value. Factor in transit costs (double+ food consumption for mechs on attack due to the current bug, with huge increases in food consumption as your distance to target increases for mechs, with nothing comparable for scouts) and they even out as I said at the start.

    Ah you know what, lets just do that calc too. To hit an enemy at 10miles away with my current HBR 8, it takes 1hr 21min; 121 food / balli, and 242 food / ram. And it takes 10 scouts with Compass 7 1min 59sec; 3 food (1 scout says 0 food so I have to use more).

    So 242*10,000 = 2420000 food + 121 * 60000 = ~10,000,000 food.
    3*10000 = 30000 food * 25 waves = 750,000 food to launch.

    So 1,000,000 food per mile for the mechs, and 75k food per mile for scouts.
    (a 50 mile attack would have a net food diff of 50mil - 3.75mil = 46mil food, or 23million gold).

    Sloan posted a report where that force killed 150k archers (I will ignore the scrub units killed though I will admit they can be a factor, but technically they had 67k ballis, 11k rams, and also 4.5k pults instead of what I actually calc'd so lets call it even) and you still have a 333% increase in efficiency with scout bombs.
    Even factoring in being slouchish on building the scouts, so you can sleep and work and have a life. Pokeynomics or not that's just numbers there.

    Your half-billion gold tag forces me to do something I never said you had to do which was turn off production. I have 15k idle d00ds, 17 racks (tearing down some buildings now, remember its day 12? 13? for me only) and 400k of wood production right now. I prefer you not add your own factors to my calcs if they're unnecessary.

    I'm sure I have more points but I'm lost in the math again. Oh yeah, something about how you lose more than your enemy only if you don't factor in plundering all their shiz, taking and barbing their town, and adding in the distinct joy of finally finally finally vanquishing your enemy. If you didn't hate that guy why would you have attacked him in the first place given current defense mechanics? Yes, I will concede to you that attacking someone sucks, but it is not impossible, and although you say that you do nothing but stain their shoes, no one has 500k archers in every town. This method is specifically for conjunction with real army attacking after clearing the town (yes that is another cost if you want to split hairs) of the insanely overpowered archer defense.
    A city has 32 building slots. Take away 20 from that and you have 12. Take away the rally point, academy, the relief station, the hero hall, the tower, and the market place, that leaves enough slots left for 6 cottages. Assuming you have no iron production, which is foolish given iron prices, you are going to need 18k population for 40 level nine sawmills/farms.

    With 6 level nine cottages and a zero tax rate you get 27k max population. Thats 9k free pop. To get the extra 6k population you would need to scrap two buildings, or use 60 mich scripts. Given that the academy, rally point, hero hall, and market places are required for your method, that means having zero towers and zero relief stations.

    Which would kind of make you a doof.

    Alternately, you could take level 10 NPCs, and rip down all the cottages. Your production there would require 21k pop. 6 level 10 cotts give you 33k, so you would have 12k free pop.

    So, leaving your production full on would require either having no towers, or no relief stations if you want 15k free pop and 20 barracks in each city, even if you have 10 level 10 NPC cities.

    Given that your army has almost no defensive value, you are probably going to want both.

    Max city production, 20 barracks, and 15k free pop requires that you do a lot of stupid things, and handicap yourself with zero iron production.

    As for saying the scout bomb is akin to the battle report Sloan posted, that is BS. In that battle report he took down and additional 360k troops on top of the archers that your scout bomb wouldn't have touched.

    As for the comments about how much you would gain, that is additionally BS. The comment about plunder is just comical coming from you. Additionally, using Sloan's battle report as an example, you might have taken out the archers, but you would still have to take out 200k warriors, 130k sword, 31k ballista, and 17k ATs before you can plunder. That is also assuming they do not call in help.

    You would also need to get through all that before you could barb his city. On top of that, given that your numbers require 10 perfect cities, you would either need an 11th city spot or you would have to barb one of your perfect cities.

    Long story short, in order to hurt the defender in Sloan's battle report by taking the defender's resources and or barbing their city, you would need the attacker in Sloan's report to help you by sending a couple waves of his army.

    Even then you wouldn't be gaining anything, just killing 500k troops at the cost of several hours of effort and 2.5 million troops and well over half a billion gold, or you would be helping someone else with a real army gain by taking out half of the defending army's troops.

    Lastly, the going away for an hour in between training waves, thats also BS =P Would take 10 200 attack heroes, or making the rounds. Also need to be doing a fair bit of ballista farming to pay for all this, which pretty much requires being shackled to evony eight hours a day for multiple days in a row. Assuming you work and sleep, at the very least you wouldn't be able to do fun things like leaving your house.

    Oh and of course, this assumes that your 100k scout waves would work as planed against that many troops, and everything went perfectly. Not to mention they can remove their archers, still crush your little scout waves, and bring them back when the real army threatened. Or close their gates.

    Don't have that option when Sloan's attacker comes knocking.

  4. #154

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    The screen shots of 350k production with 15k free pop doesn't mean anything. Optimum production will exceed that with tech bonus alone. Without valleys or even mayor, you are looking at ~350k. In fact I just tested. I can pull that level of production off by setting it to 30% of food, and 0 for all others.

    Thus your screen shots really do not prove anything. Perhaps you do not have your production all the way off, but having 30% of optimum still proves that the cost of this method is far higher then advertised. You might not have to give up 100% of your production, but you will have to give up 70%.

    And removing your market? Thats just silly.

    As for not being chained to your computer, you didn't actually support an argument, so the facts stand.

    You must still be available to evony for 2 four hour blocks (spaced 10 hours or so apart) each day based on your statements. In those four hours you must NPC farm at least once for 90 waves, and hop your highest attack hero around to ten towns four times, once each hour. That isn't exactly signing on for five minutes once an hour, and going off to do other things.

    As for the 'Stuff about circumstances' you are just wrong. If they remove their ranged units, your army is destroyed on swordsmen, and you lose. If the same trick is used on Sloan's BR, the attackers win.

    As for the idea of handicapping yourself by only having nine cities so you have the ability to spend half a billion resources and temporarily reduce other players to nine cities, thats not strategically wise.

    And even that assumes you have the army to clear out the other five hundred thousand units in the city we have been using as an example. At best, the 2.5 million scout bomb is just an ice breaker. You still need the big wall of battle in Sloan's report to do anything other then slit your wrist and laugh at person who's shoes you stained.

    Killing 500k troops at the cost of half a billion gold, 2.5 million troops, and hours of effort isn't clever when you have nothing to show for it other then cutting the enemy's garrison in half. They will just medic ~150k of their archers back to life, and replace the rest over the next few days.

  5. #155

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    I took out 354K archers and around 100K other troops in a city with 2 waves that included 65K Ballista. The first wave fell but the second wave cleared everything.. Both hero's in attack were over 200 att though, I'm sure that helped. I will try and dig up the report. but it was some time ago.. Post nerf.

    Me and a buddy of mine also attacked a city with 600K archers and 400K other troops. I had 220 Ballista in my first 3 waves and sent like 150K archers in the next 2. My buddy had like 100K ballista in his first 2 waves.. We lost all our first 7 attacks but I believe it was the 8th wave of 95K balls that finished the remaining troops off. we did get inside the walls to plunder. We also gave the guy 16 mil honor. lol

    The problem is with the barb nerf it is almost impossible to feed an army that big. As to why we were killing troops off.

  6. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valin View Post
    That "realistic" agrument has been beaten down countless times. This game is in no way realistic. Do catapults eat food in real life? No. So a "realistic" game wouldn't have a mechanical unit eating 125x the amount of food as a worker. I've got a million others if you want to go the "realistic" route.
    But the thing is, the catapults arent inanimate, they have to have people who operate them. So there is a bit of realism in the game.

  7. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valshire View Post
    But the thing is, the catapults arent inanimate, they have to have people who operate them. So there is a bit of realism in the game.
    Goodie, make archer towers eat 50 food per hour, and DTs eat 250.

    Realism cuts both ways. ATs and DTs need to be operated as well.

  8. #158

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    Man... I'm glad i dont play evony anymore, as i assumed its gone from head-fun to major-migraine very quickly... good luck folks

  9. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by NemoInTheWoods View Post
    so it's a bad move to attack a city this defended? that's for agreeing with the point i was making by starting this thread. there's no reason to attack other players if they have a high wall and a lot of archers
    So, If I read this correctly it states you shouldn't attack someone who is bigger then you?

    I learned that in the 4th grade...

  10. #160

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    in this game you cant attack anyone near or as strong as you. you can only attack people 1/8 of your strenght

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