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Thread: Lack of Game Support...

  1. #1

    Default Lack of Game Support...

    First off, let me state that while I am new to Civony, I am not a "newbie" to these kind of games. However, having tried (and failed) twice thus far to start the game without asking what has been defined as "Noob" questions, I'm beginning to understand why ther world chat is so clogged with them.

    This game lacks anything of a tutorial. While it's fine for those of you who already know how the game works to say "stick to the ongoing quest and you'll be fine" or words to that effect, this is not a workable solution in practice.

    Undertand that the general public's attention span is somewhat lacking. What I've found so far, is if you do follow the quests the game frovides, you soon end up with no resources to build further, and nothing to show for it in your town except cottages.

    Fine that;s a start for the workforce maybe, but it doesn't really attact interest. What this game severely lacks is a useful in-game tutorial.

    A beginner quest, showing new players how the game works, what buildings you can build, and which ones are actually needed for play would cut down the "noob" banter to a bare minimum.

    For example, a new account has a set amount of resources already havested, a newbie package, and a few other items. At no point does the "ongoing" quests mention any of this, and while you can see your resources (if you look for them) you won't find your "newbie starter kit" unless you spend the first 5-10 minutes clicking everywhere on the page.

    This is all very well, but you must understand that a true "newbie" player will be unwilling to just click everywhere randomly, as this tends to lead to bad things. Most of who (if you even bother to read this far) will doubtless disagree with my words - after all you mananged it, so should everyone else, right?

    WRONG!

    This attitude is not one that encourages new players to stick around.

    Take for example this little gem. After (once again) discovering that following the games quests leads to nothing but draining yourself of resources, with little hope of building anything else for some time, I responded to an advertisement posted in world chat:

    (name not given to protect the guilty) "If any new players need help and assistance, mail me I'd like to help." Or words to that effect. This struck me as a pretty nice guy, so I did as instructed and mailed him with my dilema:

    (me) "Okay, so I'm new to the game. I started yesterday, and for some reason all my progress (which admittedly wasn't a lot) got wiped.

    I started again just now, and following the quest guide, have run out of resources. The quest guide is crazy, as all it says is "ass a cottage" over and over. No mention of the other buildings you can construct. No mention of what's outside the city. And no mention of the newbie package thsat I found after the facts.

    From what I see, I'm going to have to start over." Due to the limits inherent in the mail system, I unfortunately could provide no further information.

    I waited a short while, and finally I got a reply:

    (him)"yes do that" Extent of "help and advice", verbatim. Okay, so this isn't exactly genius advice, but I figure I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, and state my requests:

    (me)"That's helpful. I'd figured that part out.

    I don't suppose you have any advice as what needs to be built to start the city off? I already contacted what laughingly passes for game support and suggested a beginner quest should be added, but that'll take some time.

    So what do you suggest needs to be built to start off the first city?" Well, sure, admittedly the fine line was a little sarcastic in hindsight (although I meant it more in jest) but what can you do. Here's his reply:

    (him)"idk" Words (if you could call it that) verbatim, once again. Wow. Such I see I'm in the presence of such genius here. I mean honestly, this guy offers advice, and then has none to give. This is the extent of the help a new player can expect from the game? Back to me:

    (me)"lol

    So why did you ask newbie players to contact you if you have no advice to give? lol" Which was folled up with:

    (him)"if you dont want the advice that im giveing get lost and dont come back " So you can see, hardly any help in the first place, and folled up with insult and a sduggestion to quit playing.

    Let me get this straight. The advice of a player who portays himself as helpful to new players is essentially, not to play the game at all? Hardly advice that a new player would want to hear, don't you agree?

    My closing statement is unimportant, as it did little other than explain to this guy that what he had to offer was hardly advice, and a comment of his unrivaled genius.

    Under the laws of most forums, my quoting of these mails will likely get me banned, but I don't care. What has occured needs attention drawing to vit, and I'm hoping the game designers, or game operaters out there are reading this.

    If this is truely the extent of help a new player is going to recieve when they start to play your game, trust me; the will not be playing it for very long.

    Take my advice, and install an update. Add a beginner quest that will answer most, if not all the questions a new player will have, and for the love of god TELL them of any gifts you're giving them.

    What is the point of offering a new player a freebee to get them started, if they don't find out about it until after they've squanders all they have to build with?

    Becasue believe me, the first thing anyone wants to do when they start to play a new game, is play it. What they don't want to do is explore what every little buttom does before they've already had a go.

    If there's a quest, it's more likely than not, that they'll start with that. And if there's a tutorial, even better. The majority of the public at large understands that tutorials are designed to help, and play them.

    It isn't hard. You've already designed the game, and install a quest/reward system. Just put in one more. before the rest.

    Get them started, show them that they need to build cottages, sure. But inform them also of the other building a town can have, and the functions they perform. Explain that they'll need to build a Forester, and Mines and god-s alone knows what else BEFORE they squander everything following the quests.

    I said before I've played games simmilar. They have a tutorial, why does this one not? And yes, I know there's a forum (I'm on it, aren't I) and it's quite likely that help and advice a new player seeks in on here.

    But I'm telling you now, that quite a number of players won't even look at the forum, let alone join it. And not just because the button that leads to it is stupidly small and at the lower bottom of the game screen.

    You have hovers over practically everything else. At the very least include a hover over this button with a note that help and advice can be found therein. Well, I'm off now. I've had my say, and I'll be posting this again in it's own link.

    I don't care what happens to my account (I'm quitting, following the advice of that unnamed player if you will) but I do hope you take into consideration the philosophy behind my words, if not the temperament that's hidden within them.

    If you want your game to grow and thrive, you will. I wondered at first why so many of my neighbours were a a simillar lvl. Now I guess I understand why. They quit almost immidiately after starting.

    Addendum: I have since (having returned to my window to close it) discovered the unnamed person about intends to declare war on me. How pathetic. I ask for help, and he sends soldiers to sack my defenseless, unproductive and unworthy town. Well, whaever floats his boat. I was quitting in any case.
    Last edited by Titus K; 04-19-2009 at 10:17 AM. Reason: Addendum

  2. #2

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    *takes 500 damage from wall of txt*

    being a person whose never played a game like this before i have to say i didnt find it a problem learning the game within a few hours all.

    1.) when i started the game i looked at the quest screen
    2.) i read ALL the quests and relized it wasnt all in sequential order.
    3.) i went on the forum for a FAQ which i found in 10 minutes
    4.) 1 hour later, you all lost THE GAME =D

    I said before I've played games simmilar. They have a tutorial, why does this one not? And yes, I know there's a forum (I'm on it, aren't I) and it's quite likely that help and advice a new player seeks in on here.
    Im sorry you were asking for advice and knew the forum would have help yet you still decided not to go??

    And not just because the button that leads to it is stupidly small and at the lower bottom of the game screen.
    Research into design on the web and GUIs have shown that your eyes instinctivly go to the bottom left. i believe the order they said was "bottom left, bottom right, top left, top right"





    i dont want this game to turn into easy mode or a 2d version of wow please, keep it so people actually have to read and learn the game =)
    Last edited by funkyging; 04-19-2009 at 10:32 AM.

  3. #3

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    I don't play these kind of web games too often but I was a little lost to start with but although it didn't take much persistence I figured out what I needed to do, however the amount of towns around me on the map that have been on <100 prestige for several days would suggest that there are plenty of people that are not figuring out what to do.

    One thing that I thought was a problem before I signed up was that the main Civony website does not contain any description or outline of what the game is about, what it involves or even a features list - all it has is some screen shots (which don't really indicate much to people that haven't already played the game) and registration. Some info on the main site about the game might help, a tutorial or guide that would show the player through the early stages would be very good, players should have to rely on searching a forum to find out how to play the game.

  4. #4

    Default

    Hmmm

    1.) when i started the game i looked at the quest screen
    2.) i read ALL the quests and relized it wasnt all in sequential order.
    3.) i went on the forum for a FAQ which i found in 10 minutes
    4.) 1 hour later, you all lost THE GAME =D
    Somehow I doubt the truth behind your words. Not that it matters. Even where you blessed with the foresight to do everything you claim, not every person on the planet is such a savant.

    Maybe my prior experience with simmilar games coloured my reasoning where the quests are concerned, but it still does not change that:

    1) The average person, having failed to divine what they're supposed to do on starting the game is more likely to seek help in the plainly active World Chat thread.
    2) Help was blatently being offered here (the World Chat) specifically for new players - albiet maybe not from the most reliable of sources.
    3) You can not read ALL the quests without first completeing one.
    4) The quests are GIVEN in sequential order, so I have no idea what you're on about.
    5) One hour later, I quit. Admittedly this seems a little extreme, but having lost all my progress the first day, and getting stuck without resources, and little advancement the next, I believe I gave the game more than enough of my time and patience.
    6) Perhaps had the person who "offered help" actually folled through with the offer, rather than act like a child, and apparently later declare war; I would be inclined to give the game the benefit of the doubt.

    But, it still doesn't change the fact that Civony itself is not an easy game to play when first starting. Argue what you want against me, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion. However wrong that may be.

    Yes, there is a forum. Most browser games have them. Yes, having read a few posts (from those players who actually are helpful - and my thanks, but too late) there in a wealth of information to be garnered here.

    But that information should not be so isolated. It should be included in the game itself, NOT just the supporting website. The Civony website itself should have something of this information. And it needs to be added to the first stages of gameplay itself.

    Im sorry you were asking for advice and knew the forum would have help yet you still decided not to go??
    As Steviepunk said before me, a new player should not HAVE to search the forum just to find help in starting the game. The game itself should be self-explainitory enough (at least at first - see defintion of "tutorial") to get someone interested in the game.

    After this initial experience, then should a player require more information, then joining the forum may become a neccessity. Even so, this kind of information would likely be more specific than generic.

    Check out the mainstream competition - Ikarium has a built-in Help section (ironically top left of screen. Admittedly the link is small, but as your 'studies' proove, top left is where everyone looks first) Travian has a built-in Tutorial.

    Research into design on the web and GUIs have shown that your eyes instinctivly go to the bottom left. i believe the order they said was "bottom left, bottom right, top left, top right"
    On the contrary, studies would proove top-left is the most common. You could argue the case for bottom left if you like, but it doesn't change the fact people only look down there because the start bar leads to their other programs.

    That being the case, your studies are invalid - the user's attention is drawn elsewhere, and the while the subconscious would still register the information, the conscious is unlikely to react on that information until a later time. At which point, it's moot, as the page is most likely no longer current.

    Admittedly this doesn't apply well to this particular case - (as the browser game would still be open) but regardless, it still would take some time before a new player would relize the link exists.

    Not that I really want to debate the worth on the link in any case, but regardless - I would still reccomend the addition of a hover.

    i dont want this game to turn into easy mode or a 2d version of wow please, keep it so people actually have to read and learn the game =)
    Don't pretend to be a fool. A tutorial will spoil nothing of what this game may have to offer. All it will do is improve on it. More players equals more money for ther game designers. More money equals more improvements, and better interface. Which in turn equals more players, and more profit.

    As for WoW, that's an entirely different game concept, and genre; and has no bearing on the matter at hand.

  5. #5

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    i didnt find it to hard,i clicked on the ground-built a cottage-saw a town icon-clicked that-built a resource builder.(farm etc)

    know even before my beginner limit is up iev built an acceptable town and own another town with a rather large military force and a clan which is helpful and considerate.

    if a new player really wants to play the game,it shouldnt matter about a tutorial or not,most players get bored or annoyed with long tutorials and its not really needed.

    any new player with commone sense will suss out the controls and prosper even before the beginner limit is reached due to the controls being easily shown to you and the non-complexity of them.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titus K View Post
    Undertand that the general public's attention span is somewhat lacking.
    that statement destroys this entire thread. makes the whole thing pointless. i got that far before i quit reading, lucky me i made it to cuz its too ironic
    Former Senator/Judge-Civony Senate
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    I prefer games with no tutorial, guides, or any helpful information. It's more fun to discover it yourself through experimentation rather than have everything handed to you over a silver platter. I definitely remember randomly clicking everywhere when I first started.

    The quest system is also more than enough of a guide to help you learn the basics. The most information does lies in the forums, and it should stay there. It's called being proactive and actually trying to find help, again, you should not have everything handed to you, or they would just make a walkthrough that built your starting village into a huge city.

    Quote Originally Posted by Titus K
    On the contrary, studies would prove top-left is the most common. You could argue the case for bottom left if you like, but it doesn't change the fact people only look down there because the start bar leads to their other programs.
    The problem is, both of you fail to actually cite any studies, therefore both of your statements hold no actual value.
    Feng-GUI is an image analyzer using salience formulas to calculate how a human would view an image. A Feng-GUI analysis of my Civony screen reveals that a player would look at the bottem left corner with a passing glance.

    Before:




    After:




    So just to be clear, people will not look at either the bottom left OR the top left. You are both incorrect, they will look at the city and the portrait first.
    Last edited by Darwin; 04-19-2009 at 02:44 PM.
    Don't mind me, I'm just a few slices short of a whole cake, and a few cards full of a short deck.

  8. #8
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    I agree with Titus that the game needs more guidance, at least in the beginning. I would be wholly in agreement with Darwin preferring to discover through experimentation - but only for later levels.

    Also like Darwin calling Titus out on the "studies" showing where people's eyes are attracted to on a computer screen.

  9. #9

    Default Darwin

    My apologies for not including the chart, but seeing as the other guy first brought it up (also with lack of support) and my statement was merely a contradiction of his flawed statement, I didn't deem it neccessary.

    Regardless, for your enjoyment:



    The above image is a graph of the studies I "failed to provide evidence for" previously. One again, my apologies for not being anal.

    This graph is the result of an in depth study of several websites - not just one, like your program provided. Naturally, your result's show that the picture at the top right is first. This is because the eye is natually drawn to pictures. The second goes to the chatbox. This is becasue the eye is also drawn to movement. The third result was the top left, as I stated was the most common.

    Further to this, you'll note there is little of anything in the area of top-left in Civony. Yet the eye is STILL drawn there. That is a result of the conditioning the mind has recieved from web-pages in general. This is because the majority of websites have their logo here. The site does state, however:

    Depending on page layout, of course, this pattern can vary. The image above is a simplistic representation of the most common eye-movement pattern we noticed across multiple homepage designs.
    In effect, every study is flawed. The results will differ for each website independantly. But Funkyging was stating that the the bottom left is most common, and this study proves otherwise. The majority of websites are designed to a formula simmilar to the example shown in this study. A study of many, not one.

    Here is a link to the source: Eyetrack

    For those of you who can't seem to grasp the concept, a tutorial is defined as:

    1)a class in a tutorial system
    2)an intensive course given by a tutor or professor for one or several students, usually on a special topic
    3)a system of instruction containing exercises, information, etc., as in a training manual or computer program, for individual self-study

    Just to clarify further, it would be definition three that applies in this case. Note however (as BBQ Sauce correctly stated before me) that a Tutorial is only really required for the initial stages of development.

    One or two simple quests PRIOR to the endless "upgrade your population" quests just to familiarize a new player with the game, it's features and such before they make too many mistakes.

    I did state (had you bothered to read, before your own post, Darwin) that for further information, the forum would suffice. This would include player experiementation also - again as BBQ Sauce undersdtands at least.

    At no point was I asking for a complete overhaul of the game. Just the inclusion of a short tutorial at the very beginning to encourage, rather than discourage new players. Once again, a forum is a good source of information, but it should not be the the sole source.

    Donalds Dawins - in your case you state that you did not have much trouble understanding the initial concept. Nor did I to a point. I too figured out the general mechanics of the game. This does not mean that a Tutorial is not needed, however.

    In your case you state also you found a friendly player who helped out. In my case, I did not. I found an idiot with delusions of gradure, that having offered to help could neither provide it, nor intended to.

    On requesting why he offered to help when he could not, his answer was to declare war. I ask you know, if this was the reception you had recieved rather than a friendly one, would you not have prefered an in-game instruction to help you figure out what at first must be done?

    Common sense is one thing, and while it's okay to say "use your common sense" you must also understand things don't always work out that way. Under threat of war, common sense would state it's time to build up the defenses.

    Clicking on the Town wall reveals a number of other buildings that must be built prior to alling even a lvl one Wall. When all resources have already been spent on "building up the population" you must understand why I brought this issue up in the first place.

    Warhawk. No it doesn't. Don't confuse the "general public" with an interested person, or forum member. The general public will stumble across the game. They will decide in the first few moments whether they wish to play it, and a tutorial would help endlessly to sway more than a few of them from giving up forthwith.

    Someone who is already interested will persevere, read further, and form an opinion based on the content regardless. After all, you replied to this thread, didn't you?

    Ultimatley, I think you're all somewhat coloured by your experience of this game. It's all very well saying "when I started...blah blah blah" but an individual's experience is theirs alone. If you had a good one, then great, if not I doubt you'd still be here.

    Also, see again the truth of your words. When you started was likely some time ago. You've been playing this game a while, otherwise you would not have an opinion so in favour of the game.

    Were you honest with yourselves, you'd state that you too had trouble with the game initially. Every game had it's faults and problems at first - regardless of whether there is a tutorial in place. Most developers understand this, and the tutorial is designed to overcome them.

    Wheterh you wish to be "babysat" or not during the initial stages of a game aside, the fact remains that without them, there is a lot about a game you will not know, or understand without further help. Experimentation can get you only so far.
    Last edited by Titus K; 04-20-2009 at 06:34 AM. Reason: Edit: Link to Eyetrack

  10. #10

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    I have to say, just from personal experience, I didn't interpret the quests as being incredibly sequential - as in, requiring you to "endlessly build cottages". There were plenty of other quests to do, and I saw that, and went to it automatically, without being stuck on the cottages...

    The thought never crossed my mind that anyone would keep trying to build cottages before trying any of the other quests.

    It seems like this is what you're suggesting that the quest guidelines indicate to people, Titus. I don't think I'm a genius, but I certainaly never assumed I had to continually build cottages before trying any of the other quests or doing anything else.

    Or did I just misunderstand you? Because this just seems like a really silly assumption to make, to me.

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