. Was the Roman Empire, Empire not Republic, destroyed by internal pressures, extern

[King Alboin]

Aye Sir TWT, yet there is still me, read then ignore, though you were never called stupid, your intelligence is not in question. Your data is.

Powerful and prestigious are not the same thing. Power is influence even if by the sword, 'power' still influence the minds and hearts and even souls of men. We are not talking prestige here but power.

And good you are now trying to support your views with references, however The Eastern Orthodox Church of old is now found its evolution as the Eastern Rite Church which is most definately Catholic, not Holy Roman yes, but they are in full communion with the Roman Pontiff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches

The Blind Doge, i argue did not "hijack" the Forth Crusade from the pope. I know that that is a common belief, however Innocent's efforts were a success as he was able to get the crusaders assembled. They, the crusaders were not hijacked either, but made the deal to attack Zara, to pay the debt for tranportation. Pope Innocent III was livid, yes and excommunicated those involved, however the progression continued to the point where the Doge agreed with the Catholic crusaders to place Alexios Angelos on the Byzantium throne.. read it for yourself..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches

Hence expansion not digretion ensued, with the later taking of the Byzantium, the eastern Latin Empire, (A Catholic State) of the thirteenth century renewed, which still supports your premise of a transitional Paganized Roman Empire into the Holy Roman Empire. Subsequent falls of the empire did occur, but not during the ascendancy of Pope Innocent III.

One more point. The Albagensian Heresy was not a little revolt. This crusade was very bloody and devastated the region for decades. In the annals of history, where dogma and the Curia are concerned, a complete and everlasting victory.

I have more to say but i must check on my bar at the moment.

[TWT]

If we are going to trade wikepida sites here is one for the Orthodox church showing it very much alive http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_orthodox. As I said I will need to get the book, only agreed to attack Zara after they had arived in Venice and found them selves short of funds, and again I will need to get the book, the Pope went back and fourth a few times on that excomunication.

[King Alboin]

Yes the Eastern Orthodox Church exist as does the Eastern Rite, but as you know are of the same origin. the Eastern Rite (the word Rite is as in 'Liturgical Rites') came from the Eastern Catholic Churches. And i dont want to swapp sites with you twt, we have varying facts that lead to the same house.

Your contention is that Pope Innocent III is merely a idk __________ < fill in the blank? But when the facts of history's authors are read he is always deemed, described, applauded, despised, remembered, emblazoned, chizeled as the most powerful pope. Not prestigious, not greatest, but poweful.

If you argue to the contrary, wonderful, argue the contrary in the face of the written facts. yet state that is what you are doing. I will grant you that neither you nor I were present when these events were transpiring, so all we can rely on is what others write down and compare that with what their contempararies (whatever) write down.

I have twice now shown you where your original poser can be supported, and recieve no repost from you regarding that. We are not here to bite your head off. JUST GET THINGS CORRECT. If what you are saying is opposed, then explain your side a little better or ignore those who disagree, no sweat. I would not be offended if you ignore me, but where is the fun in that? What other course is there but discourse, i ask you? I have had people on these forums, correct my spelling, correct my grammer, jump in between me and a post, disagree with the most uninformed and the most informed facts, opinions, truths, falacies, p and q's, you would imagine. I dont care, and you know why, cuz i have fun testing, and writing, and studying, and evolving into a better person of knowledge and grace. You should too. If you are not wrong, keep being right until you realize you are wrong, then just say opps, my bad and go on. find something else to be wrong/right about. but dont my friend stop having fun. Evony might be forever, but we arent.

[TWT]

Well, as you will not believe Wikipedia and you will not believe the website if the Orthodox churches, than I suggest you go to your nearest Orthodox church, denomination does not matter, and ask them if they are under the authority of the Pope, the contention I believe what you are holding. Second, I agree the Innocent was powerful, I am not saying that he was not, I am simply saying that he was not the most powerful, after all, he excommunicated the crusading armies twice, and still could not control their actions. As I have said before I am going to go get the letters of the fourth crusade today, I don’t have them laying around my apartment, and I can provide you with chapter and verse. As for where you agreed with me, I and thrilled that you do, but do not really see what is left in that to discusses. And finally, I am in no way opposed to taking criticism or engaging in debate, but regarding my most recent posts, and I am guessing this is what you are referring to, I do get a little cranky after the tenth time someone has called me stupid, maybe it is a personal failing, but it just rubs me the wrong way.

[King Alboin]

This TWT is of that which i speak of. I did say "Eastern Orthodox Church" However i meant Eastern Rite, oops my bad. (we have been talking about one and the different of two who used to be one.)

The Eastern Rite Churches are Eastern Christian churches consisting of five rites derived from ancient traditions of Christian churches in the East. They are now in communion with the Western church under the papacy. Distinct from both the Orthodox churches and the so-called Independent churches of the East, neither of which recognize papal primacy, the Eastern Rite churches are also sometimes known as Eastern Catholic, or Uniate, churches. Today more than 10 million Eastern Catholics are in the various rites.
The five rites are the Byzantine, Alexandrian, Antiochene, Chaldean, and Armenian. Within these rites are further subdivisions according to national or ethnic origins. The largest single group of Eastern Catholics is the Ukrainian church (Byzantine rite); it has about 7 million members, with approximately 70 percent in Ukraine. In the United States there are about 250,000 Ukrainian Catholics.
A rite signifies more than a liturgy; it denotes distinctive traditions across a broad front. Noteworthy among these for Eastern Catholics, in contrast with those of the Roman rite, is a married clergy. Distinctive sacramental practices are also found, such as the immediate admission of baptized infants to confirmation and the Eucharist. Rather than Latin, the liturgical languages of the Eastern Rite churches are either those spoken by the original missionary founders or the present-day vernacular. The Second Vatican Council, in its Decree on the Catholic Eastern Churches, confirmed the pledge to preserve the Eastern rites intact. Such a reassurance was welcome because of the repeated criticism by these churches that their traditions were gradually being eroded by their communion with Rome.
The effecting of this communion was a long process. After the Great Schism of 1054 between Eastern and Western Christians, some groups, such as the Maronites and Armenians, were united to Rome in the following century. The real history of the development of the Eastern rite churches, however, began in the 16th century. In 1596, by the Brest-Litovsk Union, two Ukrainian Orthodox bishops acknowledged the primacy of the pope. Other groups followed, such as the Chaldeans (1681) and other churches of the Byzantine rite (the Ruthenians in 1592, the Romanians in 1698, and the Melkites in 1724). The last were the Malankarese (Antiochene rite) of India in 1930. As these various groups of Eastern Catholics grew, Rome established ecclesiastical hierarchies for them.
The Eastern churches have their own canon law and are not bound by the Code of Canon Law of the Western church. Each church is governed by a patriarch (the patriarchs of Alexandria, Babylon, and Cilicia, and three patriarchs of Antioch). A patriarch with his synod has the highest authority within his jurisdiction and is even able to appoint bishops and create dioceses. Nonetheless, the Sacred Congregation for the Oriental Churches, whose membership includes the Eastern Rite patriarchs, has general competence over the Eastern rites. John W. O'Malley

And please sir? quoteth me where of i said you where 'stupid' and i shall in the public square humbly apologize. Yet i have yet to have thereforeth thinketh that i have yet said such a word for i do not call folks stupid unless they are on a YamaSuki 1000 cc suicide motorcycle or a KawaHondo widowmaker going 130 mph in the hammer lane on one wheel where there are babies present in the other cars of which highways we all share.

{Side note: Papers? you have papers on the fourth Crusade, Papal Papers? please share, and we will all be edified.}

[TWT]

I think I see where our disconnect is, there is a Eastern Right Church, the one you are referring to, which is in communion with the Holy See, and than there is the Eastern Orthodox Church, the one I am referring to, which is not. As for the second part I though you were referring to my decision to stop communicating with Conrad and that is where that came from, I certainly do not think you called me stupid. As for the paper it is not published it was for one of my seminars in school, I don't have the final draft on this computer but I can give you what I have, it is a few drafts form the end as I recall, and about 25 pages.

[King Alboin]

I think I see where our disconnect is, there is a Eastern Right Church, the one you are referring to, which is in communion with the Holy See, and than there is the Eastern Orthodox Church, the one I am referring to, which is not. As for the second part I though you were referring to my decision to stop communicating with Conrad and that is where that came from, I certainly do not think you called me stupid. As for the paper it is not published it was for one of my seminars in school, I don't have the final draft on this computer but I can give you what I have, it is a few drafts form the end as I recall, and about 25 pages.

Cool... and yes, i would like to read even the little you have, though not published. i wont plagerize it with out permission, my email is below my sig or pm me.

the point about Conrad is this. He is very intelligent and Very well read and educated. He is also a Knight of the Order of Accuracy. I dont have the luxury of time to start a thread about the power of the Holy See, but ya'll do. I think it would be a very interesting thread and an exciting E-Jouste to watch said battle of this apparent discord with all lances loaded, so to speak.
and not to spam, but he has a forum also that these things can be discussed, "the lists" if you will. I am sure he would be happy to pm you the address. soooo...



so have a beer on me..
until next time..

[TWT]

For those who are intrested

Andrea, Alfred J and Moor, John C. "Innocenzo III: Urbs Et Orbis, Two Views on Innocent III and the Fourth Crusade." Istituto Storico Italiano Per Il Medio Evo 1.9-15 settembre 1998 (2003): 524.
Andrea, Alfred J with contributions by Whalen, Brett E. Contemporary Sources for the Fourth Crusade. Leiden, The Netherlands: Koninklijk Brill, 2000.
Brand, Charles M. "A Byzantine Plan for the Fourth Crusade." Speculum 43.3 (1968): 462-75.
Madden, Thomas F. Crusades: The Illustrated History. Ed. Thomas F. Madden. Ann Arbor: Duncan Bird Publishing, 2004.
Throop, Palmer A. "Criticism of Papal Crusade Policy in Old French and Provençal." Speculum 13.4 (1938): 379-412.
Villehardouin. Chronicles of Crusade. Trans. M. R. B. Shaw. Baltimore: Penguin Books, 1963.
Wolff, Robert Lee. "Politics in the Latin Patriarchate of Constantinople, 1204-1261." Dumbarton Oaks Papers 8 (1954): 225-303.