Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 79

Thread: Evony - Age of the Scout

  1. #21

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pokey View Post
    Hahahahah. I love it. I'm sorry to pick on you kass but I know how you operate.

    I even put it in my post "I'm going to prove that showing someone is wrong does not work and only will cause them to cloud over the issue by reassigning the argument to a new topic, watch."

    Anyway as I said, I don't hold any ill will for you, so don't take it personally. Just wanted to show my man icy here what the score is.
    Showing someone is wrong requires that you prove your position is correct. I am asking you to do that. You haven't shown I was wrong, you have just said I was. Big difference. I am perfectly willing to say I am wrong if you can show me as fact that the hero attack stat only effects unit attack rating, and no other stats.

    I am actually genuinely curious. I do not care about the personal attacks. I am a tactician, that means new facts are handy, as they dispel old misconceptions. If you can actually prove your statement, I will not only concede that you are correct, but do so happily.

    Heck, I will do what Shroom did not. I will make a Sig that says 'Pokey knows a whole lot about battle mechanics, and I am in abject awe over how much effort he puts into researching his positions. All should listen to him, as no one knows it better.' and keep it there for a few weeks.

    Thats about all I got to offer. Would you kindly support your claim now with proof? If it is true, the information would be quite useful.

    *edit* is there like a guide made by evony that defines all the stats somewhere? I really would like to know the finer points of INT.

  2. #22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kassikas View Post
    Showing someone is wrong requires that you prove your position is correct. I am asking you to do that. You haven't shown I was wrong, you have just said I was. Big difference. I am perfectly willing to say I am wrong if you can show me as fact that the hero attack stat only effects unit attack rating, and no other stats.

    I am actually genuinely curious. I do not care about the personal attacks. I am a tactician, that means new facts are handy, as they dispel old misconceptions. If you can actually prove your statement, I will not only concede that you are correct, but do so happily.

    Heck, I will do what Shroom did not. I will make a Sig that says 'Pokey knows a whole lot about battle mechanics, and I am in abject awe over how much effort he puts into researching his positions. All should listen to him, as no one knows it better.' and keep it there for a few weeks.

    Thats about all I got to offer. Would you kindly support your claim now with proof? If it is true, the information would be quite useful.

    *edit* is there like a guide made by evony that defines all the stats somewhere? I really would like to know the finer points of INT.
    I guess I should apologize. I don't actually care about this at all, I was not trying to prove myself right or wrong, though my points do stand on their own they were just made for the effect of goading you into making a response to prove a totally separate point, as to the futility of debate.

    To be less of a jerk I will respond I suppose. As with all stats the proof is from empirical experience, there are no guides from Evony nor shall there ever be. You can take it on faith that other people aren't tryin to trick you, or you can prove/disprove it to yourself. I don't have enough interest left in this game to generate reports for you if you do not wish to do it yourself, as it is quite tricky to show (that is it is hard to find equivalent level attack heroes with varying levels of intelligence, then push them against targets of equal power). I don't yearn for any sigs or anything either, but thanks.

    EDIT: I suppose you can apply the combat formula in reverse to see what variation from the norm you get with a high level attack hero compared to a low one. That's a fun mathy way to prove it to yourself, or disprove it as the case may be.

    One thing I will say however, is that there is the possibility that the attack stat effects movement speed (by a very small amount) in battle. I don't have hard evidence for this yet, but my observations have tended to prove correct in the past in these matters. An odd effect if true.
    Last edited by pokey; 07-10-2009 at 04:19 AM.

  3. #23

    Default

    Well drat, I didn't think you were trolling me. It isn't nice to tease. Such info would have been all kinds of neat.

    As for the meat of the issue, I am pretty sure that the attack stat does impact movement speed, as I have seen some odd fluctuations on NPC raids when attack heroes not being power leveled were leveling up, and such fluctuations in losses have been commonly attributed to movement speed. Sort of like mid level HBR tech and ballista raids on level five NPCs. If attack had been the only stat effected by hero ability score, then archer losses would decline at a steady rate, never wobble about for a bit and then decline.

    But if we assume that movement speed is effected, there is no reason to assume that other stats are not as well. It seems rather arbitrary for hero ability score to only effect attack and move speed. Without strong evidence to support that assertion, there is no reason to assume that Evony Devs were so arbitrary. Occam's razor and the like.

    Not going to pretend to be a hero stat expert. INT has baffled all my testing, particularly when it comes to defensive scout wars and medal drop rates. (freaking attack heroes always get more drops for me. Drives me insane because it has to be coincidence.) If however we assume that attack power is not the only stat improved by hero ability score, there is no reason to assume that it is only MS and AT.

  4. #24

    Default

    Well I don't consider it to be that arbitrary. Attack making your units more vicious and intelligence making your units more cautious makes sense to me actually (and polit having no real effect, maybe boring the enemy units? Iunno).

    You seem to know me well also, as I couldn't let a challenge go untested, so I attacked two level 5 flats with heros with the same intelligence and varying attack (it should be possible to reverse calculate from this though not as well), but unfortunately one flat had only swords and the other had hundreds of wars pikes and archers. So... I tried, but so it goes.

    EDIT: Damn you kassikas. I now have a bunch of test plans rolling around, that I will probably implement...
    Last edited by pokey; 07-10-2009 at 04:49 AM.

  5. #25

    Default

    I think you misunderstand.

    Way back in the day when I was a newbie all the guides on hero stats said that INT some how governed medal and item drop rates. In my testing however I have gotten better drop rates from attack heroes, which not only defies what was and might still be common wisdom, but basic logic. Thus I assume coincidence.

    I do not think that anyone has argued that INT effects combat stats for anything but scouts, and I find that assumption dubious, at least when it comes to defensive scout battles.

  6. #26

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kassikas View Post
    I think you misunderstand.

    Way back in the day when I was a newbie all the guides on hero stats said that INT some how governed medal and item drop rates. In my testing however I have gotten better drop rates from attack heroes, which not only defies what was and might still be common wisdom, but basic logic. Thus I assume coincidence.

    I do not think that anyone has argued that INT effects combat stats for anything but scouts, and I find that assumption dubious, at least when it comes to defensive scout battles.
    The common wisdom of int effecting medals is BS, I have never bought into it and I've never seen anyone provide a shred of evidence for it. I've fought against it but it's a losing battle so I gave up, I don't really care if people send their int heros on medal missions. It doesn't hurt them at any rate. People also say that int helps give them better scouting reports, this could be true, but I likewise don't believe it and haven't seen any evidence for it either. But again it doesn't hurt anyone so it's not a big problem for me if they send their heroes out on scouting missions.

    There have been many discussions on INT likewise altering defense though for some reason it has never caught on with the masses like int and medals, I guess because really attack is much more important than defense in almost every battle situation, so its usefulness in common battles is very low and thus it fell into oblivion, only remembered by a few folk like myself.

    However I will point out that if int effects defensive scout battles, that certainly falls in line with the general concept no? Why would it be isolated to just that one event? Scout battles are combat just like any other form of combat (with the exception that defending scouts actually fight which is not true in normal defenses, but that's not a mechanics change just an involved unit change).

  7. #27

    Default

    Well back in the day there was strong evidence of INT effecting item and medal drops. People did tests with thousands of attacks when you could scout spam. Read a rather good guide during my first week, but that was months and months ago.

    The testing I have done is all post medal nerf, and like I said, I figure it is just coincidence.

    Mostly I figure that INT doesn't do much for defensive scout battles. Besides, the game mechanics always seem to put my attack hero in charge of defensive scout wars, and the attack hero tended to do quite well.

    To be honest, it is rather hard to firm data to pick patterns out of, as you rarely get multiple similar scout attacks.

    Another problem comes with the sheer amount of variables that come into testing any INT hypothesis. The Evony player base has so little information on the actual battle mechanics that half of what anyone knows is assumption and gut conjecture.

    Which sucks so many goats it isn't even slightly funny. I mean, just as one example, we can all agree that the attack hero stat increases unit attack power, but has anyone even scratched the surface of the formula to figure out the rate of improvement?

    And you and I can agree that it is possible, maybe even likely that AT effects MS, but I am quite sure neither of us would be willing to take any sort of stab at coming up with the actual numbers.

    Heck, we can not even prove if it does or does not effect MS. How can we prove how much when we can not even conclusively prove one way or the other.

    Any way you slice it, goats are suckled.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    S6 & NYC
    Posts
    426

    Default

    This thread is awesome. Two of my four favorite battle mechanic posters are in it (Pokey and Kassikas, although I'll start reading IcyIcicle's stuff more closely too). Now all we need to do is add Vecius and Soin.

    Excellent points from the two of you - so much better than the nonsensensical arguments Kempion makes:

    Last edited by SDog; 07-10-2009 at 09:27 AM.

    RETIRED FROM EVONY
    In short, the carebears won the battle for Civony. Behold their chubby rainbow bellies and tremble, for they lost every single battle, but sure as heck won the war.
    -Kassikas

  9. #29
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Somewhere Out In Space
    Posts
    549

    Default

    I must say, I thoroughly enjoy their debates. They're heated, but civil. And they both make excellent arguments to prove their points. All in all, great reads.
    Science never sleeps...

  10. #30

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kassikas View Post
    Pokey: Care to prove how you know just what advantages the attack stat provides defending players?
    I'll be honest I didn't read to much of your twos posts on heroes but I skimmed them.

    As far as I can tell based on these latest attack reports is that defensive hero attacked means very little, unless their is a huge tier range, or if it only matters if your hero is lower than theirs. Look at these 4 battle reports (or just the notes next to it). My opponent was sending crappy heroes as he did not want to lose his good ones. One rounders often seem to yield a hero loss no matter the loyalty level.

    battle5.evony.com/default.html?logfile/45/a3/cf/e4/45a3cfe454f29dfc4e8342ff89d979f9.xml - Lv 76 with a 68 Base Attack
    battle5.evony.com/default.html?logfile/f3/c0/02/62/f3c00262cccdb2a5a6029f10b15080d4.xml - Lv 91 with a 68 Base Attack (Same Result as above)

    battle5.evony.com/default.html?logfile/04/03/2a/41/04032a414a89447d83a6eb4161e6e361.xml - LV 91 with 68 Base Attack
    battle5.evony.com/default.html?logfile/db/ce/f5/63/dbcef563a6e3ada78e63ecf1604f511e.xml - Lv 102 with 68 Base Attack (Same Result as above)

    As far as INT, in my experience it ONLY works with scouting, not scout attacking but getting information. If you send 100,000 scouts at someone and are unable to get the building makeup, sending an INT hero will nearly always yield the missing information from the previous report. INT otherwise seems useless outside of lowering research time. Casualties seem to remain pretty consistent. WTB a test server...
    Last edited by Icyicicle; 07-10-2009 at 10:46 AM.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •