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Thread: Key Issues on Combat Mechanics~

  1. #311

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    Nice guide Brad, now I'll try to summarize what I got from this thread.Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    1. Battle start not at 5k range but around 5.2k

    2. point zero is defender starting location

    3. Defender troops will only move if the attacking unit trigger any fortification or entering any unit/AT attack range

    4. Scoutbomb

    Scoutbomb in the simplest form is doing kamikaze attack using purely scout in a high number over and over to took out the archer.

    Scout will attack archer if archer is the most 'valuable' unit (can you tell my what determine the 'value'.For now I assumed it unit with highest attack in total)

    with compass lv 10 scout have 6k move speed so they can reach point zero and hit the archer/any unit they consider 'valuable' without fighting other type of unit (layer)

    from my experiment scoutbomb will fail if you put other kind of infantry unit. I have suspicion that attacking scout will only move if other infantry unit are killed (unproven)

    5. Horse are good for attacking and not too good for defending. Horse have habit to bypass all unit and focus on attacking archer, but then there is time where they fight the layers and ignore the archer (don't know why).

    adding 1 archer with cavalry attack will help since the defending archer will focused on attacking the archer giving your cavalry free attack

    6. NPC lv 10 have some randomness that make the amount of troops you lose vary. Compass lv 10 may or may not affect this.

    7. Attack from range unit are rounded up

    8. traps/abatis/rolling log/rockfall didn't instant kill but give certain damage to unit. AT damage are considered as melle damage.

    Do I miss something important?

    Btw I have Question
    let say in a town battle the attacking troops start at 5.2k range. I attack with 10k cavalry (all tech max) vs 10 abatis, 1k cavalry, 100k pikemen -they also have max tech- (this is just an example,I won't do this in the real battle)


    first round
    with HBR 10 cavalry have 3k move speed so they will move to 2.2k triggering the abatis

    since my cavalry trigger the abatis the defending troops are moving for the second round, my question is where will my cavalry stand on the second round?Do they :

    a) stay in 2.2k while the defending cavalry move to 2.2k and fight my cavalry.

    b) Move to 1.1k and fight the defending cavalry there

    c) Move to 0 and fight the defending cavalry and pikemen there

    d) Move to 600 (pikeman position) and fight defending cavalry and pikemen there

  2. #312

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    will this be work at all serve?

  3. #313

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkbrady View Post
    Reports 3 and 4 are a simple case of layerin'.
    Fuller layer and the archers take few losses, and a emptier layer allows the offense to hit fast and reach the archers.

    Reports 1 and 2 are the type of things that baffle people in this game, 'cuz it's pretty much the opposite.
    The pikes move fast, which meant they got into the offensive archers range quickly. Your archers stopped to destroy them which made the defence all have to advance; since they move at different speeds they started to split up and gave the offence easy-pickings to shoot at them one by one.
    When the pike isn't there, the defence don't need to move as much because the offence never stopped movin'. The offensive archers attackin' the defence when it's grouped together gets them killed quicker.

    Now you ask "but wait, that means fast defensive units are bad?!"
    Well yes and no.

    Yes, because as everyone knows, HB units don't work well as defence and get killed quicker, and yes those pikes in the defence actually got more archers killed....

    But no, because HB units move so much faster that they get in range of, and killed before the defence advances too far (especially so w/ archer damage bonuses on ponies) and because if those pikes were in greater number they would have worked as a better stall and been alive by the time the enemy got in range, too.

    Thin layers are bad. They work for the case of a rainbow, but generally you're better off with fuller layers than thinner ones.
    Sayin' that, anyone can say that situations like that are pretty rare.
    why is report 1 and 2 weird? they seem normal to me, enemy archers eventually will engange defence archers, but they cannot see the ballista cuz ballista is firing at them outside their range. 15k+ ballista is around the attack of 50+k archers.
    Also notice the defending hero lvl.
    This does not look like a matter of layering.. i doubt any layers he would have put would haev made much changes. Its a matter of speed. He was able to kill some archers when there was not so many of them, but when the were a lot, the attacking archers did not have time to reach defending archers.
    I think this would have worked much better for u, had u kept the first attack as it is, and instead of the other attacks made a cavalry/cata bomb.
    Last edited by DrKiller; 11-11-2009 at 04:08 AM.

  4. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrKiller View Post
    why is report 1 and 2 weird? they seem normal to me, enemy archers eventually will engange defence archers, but they cannot see the ballista cuz ballista is firing at them outside their range. 15k+ ballista is around the attack of 50+k archers.
    Also notice the defending hero lvl.
    This does not look like a matter of layering.. i doubt any layers he would have put would haev made much changes. Its a matter of speed. He was able to kill some archers when there was not so many of them, but when the were a lot, the attacking archers did not have time to reach defending archers.
    I think this would have worked much better for u, had u kept the first attack as it is, and instead of the other attacks made a cavalry/cata bomb.
    The "mystery" behind it was that the defence took several thousands more deaths, even though the only real difference was that an extra layer was added to the defence.

    Quote Originally Posted by DyneMcArthur View Post
    Nice guide Brad, now I'll try to summarize what I got from this thread.Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    1. Battle start not at 5k range but around 5.2k
    It's a theory that has strong evidence, but not emprically proven
    2. point zero is defender starting location
    Correct
    3. Defender troops will only move if the attacking unit trigger any fortification or entering any unit/AT attack range
    No; defendin' units will always move, regardless.
    4. Scoutbomb

    Scoutbomb in the simplest form is doing kamikaze attack using purely scout in a high number over and over to took out the archer.
    That's it's standard purpose.
    Scout will attack archer if archer is the most 'valuable' unit (can you tell my what determine the 'value'.For now I assumed it unit with highest attack in total)
    Total resource value.
    with compass lv 10 scout have 6k move speed so they can reach point zero and hit the archer/any unit they consider 'valuable' without fighting other type of unit (layer)
    Correct
    from my experiment scoutbomb will fail if you put other kind of infantry unit. I have suspicion that attacking scout will only move if other infantry unit are killed (unproven)
    Other infantry units only get in the way if their value exceeds the archers. The scoutbomb will simply attack the highest value unit; most folk ju's generally flood with archers and little else, makin' the archers the target.
    5. Horse are good for attacking and not too good for defending. Horse have habit to bypass all unit and focus on attacking archer, but then there is time where they fight the layers and ignore the archer (don't know why).
    HB units will fight units one at a time. The only reason they'll ignore the other layers and hit the archers first is if they can get in range of all the enemy units at one time, wherein they will target the highest value unit; again, typically archers
    adding 1 archer with cavalry attack will help since the defending archer will focused on attacking the archer giving your cavalry free attack

    6. NPC lv 10 have some randomness that make the amount of troops you lose vary. Compass lv 10 may or may not affect this.
    As far as we know. We can't come up w/ exact numbers due to this, but most of the random factor comes from enemy hero attack, which can't be found out, and from number of rounds, which are affected by another factor that we can't quite seem to pin.
    7. Attack from range unit are rounded up
    Correct. Any damage to the unit at all will kill it.
    8. traps/abatis/rolling log/rockfall didn't instant kill but give certain damage to unit. AT damage are considered as melle damage.
    ATs do have the range penalties
    Do I miss something important?
    Idk...
    Btw I have Question
    let say in a town battle the attacking troops start at 5.2k range. I attack with 10k cavalry (all tech max) vs 10 abatis, 1k cavalry, 100k pikemen -they also have max tech- (this is just an example,I won't do this in the real battle)


    first round
    with HBR 10 cavalry have 3k move speed so they will move to 2.2k triggering the abatis
    HBR10 = 50% move speed, not 100%. Ponies can never move faster than 1,5k.
    since my cavalry trigger the abatis the defending troops are moving for the second round, my question is where will my cavalry stand on the second round?Do they :

    a) stay in 2.2k while the defending cavalry move to 2.2k and fight my cavalry.

    b) Move to 1.1k and fight the defending cavalry there

    c) Move to 0 and fight the defending cavalry and pikemen there

    d) Move to 600 (pikeman position) and fight defending cavalry and pikemen there
    They'd meet the enemy ponies first and attack them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satan
    I said before I need to be in the top 100 players or else I won't be able to defend myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ken Deathmarr View Post
    You know, I don't understand your post sometimes ok? So I take it as a mean threat.

  5. #315

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    ...okay that where I'm wrong, I thought HBR will give the same boost like compass

    Thnx for the clarification

    from my experiment scoutbomb will fail if you put other kind of infantry unit. I have suspicion that attacking scout will only move if other infantry unit are killed (unproven)

    Other infantry units only get in the way if their value exceeds the archers. The scoutbomb will simply attack the highest value unit; most folk ju's generally flood with archers and little else, makin' the archers the target.
    I mean if you put another infantry unit with the scoutbomb like 90k scout and 10k warrior then the scoutbomb will failed

  6. #316
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    Oh.
    Yeah.
    The scoutbomb will fail beacsue the scouts will then not be the only unit there and not in a kill-or-die position, so they'll sit back and do nothin' while your other troop marches.
    By the time your scouts are the only ones left, the enemy has split up and you'll have to hit the layers before you reach the archers; scoutdeath.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satan
    I said before I need to be in the top 100 players or else I won't be able to defend myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ken Deathmarr View Post
    You know, I don't understand your post sometimes ok? So I take it as a mean threat.

  7. #317
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    Default Further questions

    Thanks you for clarifications, Darkbrady.

    I'll continue with my questions.

    1. AT behaves like other ranged units with the following exceptions:
    - it doesn't move
    - the only technology which changes its characteristics seems to be Engineering (ATs life). All other technologies are not applicable.
    Is it correct? Sorry, if it sounds obvious.

    2. Ulfhere's comments about traps&abatis: "abatis trigger 10% of their total every round. Traps trigger 5% immediately and 5% every 2 rounds thereafter.". It's taken from http://bbs.evony.com/showpost.php?p=605257&postcount=15
    1) I am curious what the rates are for Logs & Trebs.
    2) When it is said "10% of their total", by total it means initial amount or the rest after each round?

    3. Does traps (and other auto-damage fortifications) damage spread evenly among troop groups regardless to troop amount?
    Say traps deal 1k damage to pikes & archers. Is it spread 500 to pikes and 500 to archers regardless of unit amounts in each group? 1k pikes & 10k archers or 1 pike & 50k archers doesn't matter? If yes, then it's an additional plus to rainbow formation.

    4. "Engaged ranged units don't shoot, but melee instead -- correct?". I mean the following: if a ranged unit (my 10k archers) is engaged in melee by some enemy unit (say 1 pike), it can't shoot at enemy ranged unit (10k archers) until it is in melee (pike). Is it correct?

    5. Target priorities are the following (please correct):
    1) For ranged only: prefer ranged with melee exception (previous point).
    2) For all units: closest enemy, then high-valued enemy. High-valued variants: biggest amount, biggest threat (amount*attack), resource-based (market prices can change priorities?)

    6. How does attack occur?
    Variants:
    1) Attacker first.
    Attacker hits.
    Remained (minis killed by attacker) defender hits.
    2) Defender first.
    3) Hit together.
    Attacker hits.
    Defender hits.
    Killed units are subtracted from attacker & defender.
    Which variant is right?

    7. Scout action still remains the mystery or is it clarified?
    Scouts don't move until they remain the only unit in army -- is it confirmed for PvP mode?

    Thanks in advance

  8. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by som View Post
    1. AT behaves like other ranged units with the following exceptions:
    - it doesn't move
    Correct
    - the only technology which changes its characteristics seems to be Engineering (ATs life). All other technologies are not applicable.
    Is it correct? Sorry, if it sounds obvious.
    Archery increases it's range

    2. Ulfhere's comments about traps&abatis: "abatis trigger 10% of their total every round. Traps trigger 5% immediately and 5% every 2 rounds thereafter.". It's taken from http://bbs.evony.com/showpost.php?p=605257&postcount=15
    1) I am curious what the rates are for Logs & Trebs.
    10% each
    2) When it is said "10% of their total", by total it means initial amount or the rest after each round?
    The % is taken off of the initial amount. Battles that last 42 rounds should wipe out abati, trebs and logs.

    3. Does traps (and other auto-damage fortifications) damage spread evenly among troop groups regardless to troop amount?
    Traps spread evenly, but the others have priority targets.
    Say traps deal 1k damage to pikes & archers. Is it spread 500 to pikes and 500 to archers regardless of unit amounts in each group? 1k pikes & 10k archers or 1 pike & 50k archers doesn't matter? If yes, then it's an additional plus to rainbow formation.
    Traps don't do damage; they autokill. But they will spread roughly evenly, regardless of numbers. This is why 1/1/1/1 rainbows on NPC10s are useless; the troops get killed by traps before they act as layers

    4. "Engaged ranged units don't shoot, but melee instead -- correct?". I mean the following: if a ranged unit (my 10k archers) is engaged in melee by some enemy unit (say 1 pike), it can't shoot at enemy ranged unit (10k archers) until it is in melee (pike). Is it correct?
    No, they will still select their priority target, which would be the enemy archers. This is why ranged layers for ponies are dangerous. While the defence is shootin' down 1 b'lister, cata and archer, they've got 90k ponies chewin' away at them untouched.

    5. Target priorities are the following (please correct):
    1) For ranged only: prefer ranged with melee exception (previous point).
    2) For all units: closest enemy, then high-valued enemy. High-valued variants: biggest amount, biggest threat (amount*attack), resource-based (market prices can change priorities?)
    The first priority is whether they're in range to attack or not.
    Then they look at their specific requirements.
    Within those specific requirements they select the highest value unit (or the longest range, in the case of ranged units).

    Market prices have zero effect on troop value.


    6. How does attack occur?
    Variants:
    1) Attacker first.
    Attacker hits.
    Remained (minis killed by attacker) defender hits.
    2) Defender first.
    3) Hit together.
    Attacker hits.
    Defender hits.
    Killed units are subtracted from attacker & defender.
    Which variant is right?

    3. You take both of their numbers and do the damage formula for each of them at their full damage. Both attack at the same time. Then, at the end of the round the dead units are subtracted.

    7. Scout action still remains the mystery or is it clarified?
    Scouts don't move until they remain the only unit in army -- is it confirmed for PvP mode?

    Scouts don't move unless they're in danger, the only one left alive, or in range of an enemy unit.
    So defendin' scouts will never attack until all other units are dead, and attackin' scouts will only attack if they begin in range of an enemy (no traps/abati) or are the only ones there (scoutbombs)
    Think thas everythin'...

    Quote Originally Posted by Satan
    I said before I need to be in the top 100 players or else I won't be able to defend myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ken Deathmarr View Post
    You know, I don't understand your post sometimes ok? So I take it as a mean threat.

  9. #319
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    Since we're asking questions...

    1. Can you really layer against ATs? Say 17K AT + 100 abatis, gates closed. You go in with ~99-100K archers. Any use to bring pike/sword/cav/phract as layer/rainbow?

    2. Do ballistae layer archers when 5K defenses are gone? (battle starts when ballys/arc are still 'together')

  10. #320

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    1. Nope

    2. If there's enough ballista they'll draw the enemies' fire. It's better to have the archers take the hits as balls do a lot more damage, you want them to last as long as possible.

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