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Thread: Key Issues on Combat Mechanics~

  1. #381

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    Darkbrady, I have a question regarding defending Horses.

    Ok, here's a scenario:

    Defenders have 12k ATs, 125k Archers, 1000 'lister, 100 Phracts, and random foot soldiers.
    Attacker used 90k Ponies, 1 Archer, 1 Scout.
    We pre-cleared all A/T/Rs before main attack and sent smaller waves of Ponies before the main hit to clean any un-wanted Abatis.



    Relevant techs:
    Attack: HBR9, Compass6
    Defense: HBR9

    Shouldn't the Scout (when it works) move all the way to point-zero and block everything before the defending Phract moved?
    Even without the Scout, shouldn't the attacking Ponies get to the Archers before the Phracts can block the way?

    However, when the attack did happen, the entire attacking Ponies died while getting blocked by layers (Phracts, Pikes, and Swords died) while getting pin-cushioned by Ranged.

    So my question is, could it be possible that the defending Phracts moved in the way before the attacking Ponies could move up or is this a case of opponent out-smarting us with a last-second Trap?
    I would love to provide a report but we didn't even kill 10%.
    Last edited by Neokarasu; 11-23-2009 at 07:46 PM.

  2. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by som View Post
    This sounds illogical -- defending troops move on the battlefield, so how can wall level effect their range? For ATs it's OK as they are located on Walls and so get bonus from walls height.

    If defending archers get wall bonus they will shoot +540 (+45% of basic 1200 range) then attacking ones, that is more than archers speed (all techs at max). Thus defending archers will have one free shot to attacking archers because of wall level (counting att & def techs as even).

    Are you sure about wall bonus for defending troops?
    Welcome to evony.
    It does exist, its why when you send 100k archers unlayered at high amounts of defensive archers you don't kill any defenders.

  3. #383
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    @som: Teleportin' cities sounds illogical, too but that's how it works. I jus' tell myself that the cities are build on hills and that the bonus is from bein' on high ground.

    @Neokarasu: a last-second trap is possible. I'm totally distracted right now and not totally sure what happened, but I'm thinkin' that you set the range to 1,3k and your ponies got layered against?
    Ponybombs are only possible if your HBR is higher than your opponents and have higher speed troops than all the enemy units.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satan
    I said before I need to be in the top 100 players or else I won't be able to defend myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ken Deathmarr View Post
    You know, I don't understand your post sometimes ok? So I take it as a mean threat.

  4. #384

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neokarasu View Post
    Attack: HBR9, Compass6
    Are these the right way around? Seems strange that Compass would be so low compared to Horseback Riding; level 6 HBR would explain the cavalry falling short of the archers.

  5. #385

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkbrady View Post
    @som: Teleportin' cities sounds illogical, too but that's how it works. I jus' tell myself that the cities are build on hills and that the bonus is from bein' on high ground.

    @Neokarasu: a last-second trap is possible. I'm totally distracted right now and not totally sure what happened, but I'm thinkin' that you set the range to 1,3k and your ponies got layered against?
    Ponybombs are only possible if your HBR is higher than your opponents and have higher speed troops than all the enemy units.
    Ok, I have a report.



    No last-second A/T/Rs, so 2 questions:

    1. Did the Scouts not keep defenders at point-zero?
    2. HBR being the same, did the defending Phract move before attacking Cavs?

    @ Birtles: yes, HBR9, Compass6 for the attackers. The defender also had Compass6.

  6. #386
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    Aye, 'phrax are what trips up my ponybomb theories; they always seem to move out in place before attackin' ponies and mess up the whole thing.

    Mind you, this only ever seems to happen when HBR levels are equal.
    Honestly don't have an asnwer for it; was way too busy and these tests were never finished.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satan
    I said before I need to be in the top 100 players or else I won't be able to defend myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ken Deathmarr View Post
    You know, I don't understand your post sometimes ok? So I take it as a mean threat.

  7. #387

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkbrady View Post
    Examples and Breakdowns~
    In this section I'll show various screenies of battle reports and break them down to explain how they work, why they work or what went wrong.

    How Ranged Units Work~
    Attackin' w/ archers always seems like a good idea, down to how much reverance people talk about it, but you have to understand one of the most important things about any ranged unit: they will always attack enemy ranged units first.
    This means that if you attack archers with archers+layer, your archers will be under seige from the enemy archers as soon as they're in range, makin' your layer essentially useless, but it will give your layers the chance to run forward and hit the enemy. This makes ponies and archers dangerous partners.
    Have a looky at this report:
    Ranged Die First
    The battle started at AT range becasue there was no traps/abati; this meant that everythin' was in range of the AT at first. So what did it do? It started to pick off the ranged units first. First the cata's died, then the b'listers, then the archers...by which point the ponies had done enough damage to finish off the last of the ATs.
    What would have saved the ATs?
    Traps/abati. This would have put the layers in range of the ATs before the ranged units, givin' the ATs the chance to kill them off more before it started to attack the ranged units.
    Combine this with range deductibles and you have a serious problem.
    This means that while your archers are busy shootin' enemy archers at the other end of the field, they're not even hittin' for maximum damage, but it also means that when those ponies arrive in front of them, they hit them for even less damage and give them all the time they need to kill your archers!
    This all isn't to say that archers can't ever attack, jus' don't expect them to be your main spearhead force against any defence with real numbers in it. Archers are still excellent waves to send to clean up heavy layers before you clean the traps/abati. At 5k range your archers can mow down enemy layers safely and quickly, even in small numbers, becasue their defending counterparts are not yet in their range to attack.
    Ofc, that's not to say that archers can't succesfully attack either, under the correct circumstances. Takin' advantage of shortrange battles and few layers can bring offensive archers up to a great advantage.
    http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/a...Archer Assault

    Importance of Rainbows~
    Let's discuss the importance of gettin' rainbow mechanics correct. We'll start w/ a full, head on attack of non-rainbowed ponies versus archers.

    100k Ponies.
    100k ponies sounds like a pretty worryin' prospect from the offset, but as you can see, it didnae go very well. What went wrong?
    The first few ponies were killed off by traps/abati while gettin' shot at by the 200k archers. They charged forward (while gettin' shot at) and killed the defendin' pony/'phract and continued on more (while gettin' shot at) to start work on the rainbow (while gettin' shot at). As you can see, gettin' constantly shot at by archers for those rounds didnae help their life expectancy as they failed to even finish workin' through the rainbow. Let's counter that problem w/ a rainbow of our own.

    99k Ponies w/ a rainbow of scouts
    Suddenly the ponies do much, much better. Despite the fact that they were against more than double the number of archers, they ripped everythin' apart. This is because the 10 scouts lunged forward and drew the attention of everythin' for long enough that the ponies go far enough ahead to have sufficient numbers left alive by the time they reached the archers. The issue w/ ponies isnae killin' the archers; they do that unbelievably quickly. The issue is gettin' to them alive. A small rainbow like this protected them for jus' long enough to reach their target and lay waste to them.
    However, it's not as simple as jus' puttin' on a wee rainbow and thinkin' the day is yours...

    99k Ponies w/ a rainbow of scouts gone awry
    The lowest number of archers yet, but the ponies were crushed and never even reached the pointy-eared bowmen. Why, you ask? Because this time, the defender had the better rainbow and was more solidly protected. Now; the first things to happen were that the scouts were utterly demolished by those catas and archers. They only drew the attention away for so long; not long enough, sadly. The ponies were still well in firin' range by the time attention turned on them. And what happened then? 18k pikemen decided to stick long sticks w/ metal into the riders. Although they wildly outnumbered the pikes and killed them all, there wasnae enough ponies left to talk about it by the end of that round, wherein they got shot up a few more times and were dead before they even reached the swordsmen.

    So..rainbows? No rainbows or weak rainbows lead only to false hope or potential defeat. You cannae jus' toss some random troops in and cross your fingers. Puttin' in the correct number and the right unit (for example; layerin' up on pikes when ponies are attackin') is absolutely essential in winnin' battles.
    Your photos have been removed

  8. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by seanybopa View Post
    Your photos have been removed
    They're still there, they jus' don't have the BBCode links atm after the big hack fiasco the other day; all hyperlinks have been disabled temporarily.

    Ju's gotta c/p the links for the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satan
    I said before I need to be in the top 100 players or else I won't be able to defend myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ken Deathmarr View Post
    You know, I don't understand your post sometimes ok? So I take it as a mean threat.

  9. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by poiuytrewq View Post
    Welcome to evony.
    It does exist, its why when you send 100k archers unlayered at high amounts of defensive archers you don't kill any defenders.
    I'm still in doubts as defending ranged items will have an overwhelming advantage in this case.

    Let's look at the example.
    Defence has no fortifications, only archers+layers. Attack has only archers+layers too. All techs are at max.
    Def.archers has range of att.archers+wall_bonus, e.g.+540. Archers speed is 500.
    Initial att.position is archers range +540 (1800+540=2340).
    1st round. Def.archers shoot at att.archers from position 0, all other defenders step forward. All attackers step forward. Att.archers (position 2340-500=1840) shoot at one of the layers unit (def.archers are +40 beyond their range).
    2ns round. Def.archers shoot at att.archers, att.archers stand at their position and shoot at layer again (as they have a target in range).
    etc...
    Def.archers shoot at att.archers for free as long as def.layers are alive (being a target for att.archers).
    Distance penalty mitigates the damage, but it's still a lot of free shots!
    If we add ATs to defence the situation will become almost unbearable for attackers.

    Does this situation look realistic for you?

  10. #390

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    Quote Originally Posted by som View Post
    I'm still in doubts as defending ranged items will have an overwhelming advantage in this case.

    Let's look at the example.
    Defence has no fortifications, only archers+layers. Attack has only archers+layers too. All techs are at max.
    Def.archers has range of att.archers+wall_bonus, e.g.+540. Archers speed is 500.
    Initial att.position is archers range +540 (1800+540=2340).
    1st round. Def.archers shoot at att.archers from position 0, all other defenders step forward. All attackers step forward. Att.archers (position 2340-500=1840) shoot at one of the layers unit (def.archers are +40 beyond their range).
    2ns round. Def.archers shoot at att.archers, att.archers stand at their position and shoot at layer again (as they have a target in range).
    etc...
    Def.archers shoot at att.archers for free as long as def.layers are alive (being a target for att.archers).
    Distance penalty mitigates the damage, but it's still a lot of free shots!
    If we add ATs to defence the situation will become almost unbearable for attackers.

    Does this situation look realistic for you?
    Except for the fact that combat round is determined by base range of units. With only Archers vs Archers, combat starts at 1200 range and that puts the defending Archers in range of the attacking Archers from R1.

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