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Thread: Key Issues on Combat Mechanics~

  1. #391
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    Default 1,2,3,4

    1. Damage round
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkbrady View Post
    Trap/abati are autokill and onehit the unit regardless of life value.
    You mean if 10 traps/abatis were triggered, it would kill exactly 10 units?
    I am afraid I didn't understand you right as I have an example of another behaviour.
    Att: 10000Cav lost 46, Def: 199abatis lost 120, Att won in 6 rounds. I don't see how 46 Cav losses relates to 120 triggered abatis.
    Could you please clarify?


    2. Battle length
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkbrady View Post
    the units still have to take a few rounds to actually destroy the walls
    Do you have a formula for this?
    Recently I sent a small amounts of various troops to the city that has nothing, but traps. My army returned home defeated and the fight lasted 100 rounds, so they seem to lack enough power to break the walls. Although 3kCav attacked successfully.


    3. Target priorities
    Finally I got what you mean by "overall resource value" thank you again for having patience to explain it.
    It was hard for me to imagine such an unusual unit value schema (food+lumber+stone+iron).
    So TotalTroopValue=UnitValue*NumberOfUnits and troops choose the enemy with the highest TotalValue (after ranged preference).
    The last note and target priorities topic will be closed for me.
    AT can be considered as an unit (just immobile), so it also has a TotalValue, right?
    Say pikes came to the walls (doubtfully, but nevertheless) and now they have archers & ATs in range. If AT is an unit, the standard formula will show which one to be chosen.


    4. Sequence question.
    As you mentioned before troops move first, then attack each other, then losses are subtracted from both sides. Where is the fortification turn in this sequence?
    I'd imagine it before troops, so the complete sequence will be:
    1. Fortifications attack.
    2. Attacker losses are subtracted.
    3. Troop turn.
    Please confirm (as usually my assumptions are wrong ).

  2. #392
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    Default Initial distance

    Quote Originally Posted by Neokarasu View Post
    Except for the fact that combat round is determined by base range of units. With only Archers vs Archers, combat starts at 1200 range and that puts the defending Archers in range of the attacking Archers from R1.
    Somehow I got an impression that initial distance is the maximum among defender&attacker troops (including fortifications) ranges, modified according to range tech level (simply saying current range). Are you completely sure it is a base range instead?
    Sorry for asking for confirmation, but the initial distance plays a vital role in battle, that's why the question is so important.

  3. #393

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    Quote Originally Posted by som View Post
    Somehow I got an impression that initial distance is the maximum among defender&attacker troops (including fortifications) ranges, modified according to range tech level (simply saying current range). Are you completely sure it is a base range instead?
    Sorry for asking for confirmation, but the initial distance plays a vital role in battle, that's why the question is so important.
    While this isn't definite proof, the circumstances that would allow that assumption to be false is pretty unlikely (i.e. max Archery/Compass for the attacker and lower Archery/Wall for the defender). But anyway, take a look at this report:



    If combat range is modified by tech/wall, combat would start at 1300 * (1 + Archery*0.05 + Wall*0.045).
    Even giving the attackers the benefit of the doubt and maxing Archery and Compass (giving a round1 "reach" of (1200 * 1.5) + 500 = 2300), the defender must have a pretty low Wall/Archery for the attacking Archers to hit that 1 AT. To be exact, 2300/1300 = 1.769 so like Wall8 and Archery8.

    So while it's not definite proof, it's just unlikely that combat was initiated outside of the attacking Archer's range.
    Last edited by Neokarasu; 11-24-2009 at 04:11 PM.

  4. #394

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    Darkbrady, have another report that I'm baffled by:



    HBR 9, Compass6

    Why did the Workers layer against my Cavs?
    Is it possible that all defending units move first regardless of speed?

  5. #395

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    To Neo, given the fact the single RL was not triggered i would have to agree with you that combat started at the defending AT range. If a single trap had been present the AT would have survived.

  6. #396

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    Just need clarification on which bonuses apply to ATs

    AT gets .05*archery lvl bonus to range
    AT does NOT get Military tradition attack bonus
    AT does NOT get Iron Working defense bonus
    AT does NOT get Medicine bonus
    AT gets .10* engineering lvl bonus to life
    AT gets .45* wall lvl bonus to range

  7. #397
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by som View Post
    1. Damage round

    You mean if 10 traps/abatis were triggered, it would kill exactly 10 units?
    I am afraid I didn't understand you right as I have an example of another behaviour.
    Att: 10000Cav lost 46, Def: 199abatis lost 120, Att won in 6 rounds. I don't see how 46 Cav losses relates to 120 triggered abatis.
    Could you please clarify?
    I can't give an exact determination...traps/abati have a sort of..miss rate....sometimes they kill less than are triggered, but sometiems they kill more than are triggered....I've not been able to figure out exactly what though Trap spread has had me interested for a while, even more so after a recent attack on s100 where I noticed a completely wild spread.



    25 traps were triggered, but there were only 12 deaths, and the spread is far from even. I'm not sure what the priority is though; it doesn't appear to be value based.

    Quote Originally Posted by som View Post
    2. Battle length

    Do you have a formula for this?
    Recently I sent a small amounts of various troops to the city that has nothing, but traps. My army returned home defeated and the fight lasted 100 rounds, so they seem to lack enough power to break the walls. Although 3kCav attacked successfully.
    Another issue of interest, although not one of mine personally. Birtles brought it up a while back, that walls were takin' far longer to break than they should. We figure that there's an inhibiter in wall damage that reduces/slows the rate it gets destroyed. It was originally considered jus' to have a health value that gets reduced like any normal unit but that long ago got proven wrong, although no theory has been able to replace it since. Suffcie to say that everythin' is capable of destroyin' walls in the right numbers, with the exceptions of scouts.


    Quote Originally Posted by som View Post
    3.AT can be considered as an unit (just immobile), so it also has a TotalValue, right?
    Say pikes came to the walls (doubtfully, but nevertheless) and now they have archers & ATs in range. If AT is an unit, the standard formula will show which one to be chosen.
    Aye, ATs are included in the unit value. For all intents and purposes, ATs are jus' super archers; higher def, higher life, higher range, higher atk but can't move and have limited numbers.


    Quote Originally Posted by som View Post
    4. Sequence question.
    As you mentioned before troops move first, then attack each other, then losses are subtracted from both sides. Where is the fortification turn in this sequence?
    I'd imagine it before troops, so the complete sequence will be:
    1. Fortifications attack.
    2. Attacker losses are subtracted.
    3. Troop turn.
    Please confirm (as usually my assumptions are wrong ).
    As above; ATs jus' act as units. All units (includin' ATs) attack at the same time, then losses are subtracted. t/a/l/d don't act like this though; they trigger before the movement phase, but ATs attack at the same time as units, as far as I've ever seen. Never looked much into this one, tph.


    Quote Originally Posted by som View Post
    Somehow I got an impression that initial distance is the maximum among defender&attacker troops (including fortifications) ranges, modified according to range tech level (simply saying current range). Are you completely sure it is a base range instead?
    Sorry for asking for confirmation, but the initial distance plays a vital role in battle, that's why the question is so important.
    Battle starts at the minimum, unmodified base range of the unit with the highest range, which will typically be ATs (unless the attacker has catas or b'listers) and this ofc excludin' t/a/d, which start the range at their own range of 5k, although arguable it extends to 5,2k...but that's for another day.
    Neok gave pretty decent confirmation and there's plenty more out there. It's not the hardest thing to prove.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neokarasu View Post
    Darkbrady, have another report that I'm baffled by:



    HBR 9, Compass6

    Why did the Workers layer against my Cavs?
    Is it possible that all defending units move first regardless of speed?
    No, otherwise scoutbombs would be impossilbe. Scoutbombs bein' possible proves definitively that speed shifts movement rates between the two players.
    I'm not sure about it, but I've always been under the impression that ATs are like transports, and are very low down on the priority list; they won't be targetted until all other units involved or in the way are already dead. Ranged units prove an exception to this though, becasue they're not only able to shoot, but prioritise shooters.
    I mean...those ponies won't have an easy time climbin' up walls w/ workers grabbin' on, will they?

    Quote Originally Posted by Efward View Post
    Just need clarification on which bonuses apply to ATs

    AT gets .05*archery lvl bonus to range
    AT does NOT get Military tradition attack bonus
    AT does NOT get Iron Working defense bonus
    AT does NOT get Medicine bonus
    AT gets .10* engineering lvl bonus to life
    AT gets .45* wall lvl bonus to range
    Correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satan
    I said before I need to be in the top 100 players or else I won't be able to defend myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ken Deathmarr View Post
    You know, I don't understand your post sometimes ok? So I take it as a mean threat.

  8. #398

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Neokarasu View Post
    While this isn't definite proof, the circumstances that would allow that assumption to be false is pretty unlikely (i.e. max Archery/Compass for the attacker and lower Archery/Wall for the defender). But anyway, take a look at this report:

    If combat range is modified by tech/wall, combat would start at 1300 * (1 + Archery*0.05 + Wall*0.045).
    Even giving the attackers the benefit of the doubt and maxing Archery and Compass (giving a round1 "reach" of (1200 * 1.5) + 500 = 2300), the defender must have a pretty low Wall/Archery for the attacking Archers to hit that 1 AT. To be exact, 2300/1300 = 1.769 so like Wall8 and Archery8.

    So while it's not definite proof, it's just unlikely that combat was initiated outside of the attacking Archer's range.
    Archers always prioritise ATs if they're in range from the start.

    Quote Originally Posted by som View Post
    3. Target priorities
    Finally I got what you mean by "overall resource value" thank you again for having patience to explain it.
    It was hard for me to imagine such an unusual unit value schema (food+lumber+stone+iron).
    So TotalTroopValue=UnitValue*NumberOfUnits and troops choose the enemy with the highest TotalValue (after ranged preference).
    The last note and target priorities topic will be closed for me.
    AT can be considered as an unit (just immobile), so it also has a TotalValue, right?
    Say pikes came to the walls (doubtfully, but nevertheless) and now they have archers & ATs in range. If AT is an unit, the standard formula will show which one to be chosen.
    Melee troops will go for the strongest enemy. Strength seems to be arbitrary, definitely not resource based. Hint: Look at how npc archers are protected in valleys.

  9. #399

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Birtles View Post
    Archers always prioritise ATs if they're in range from the start.
    That wasn't the question.

    Since the attacker is in range of the defender (because of the AT's death), the difference in range b/w the attacker and defender has to be 1800 or lower. The question was whether this is caused by some weird variation of Compass/Archery or the fact that combat range is determined by base range of the AT (1300).

    Also, valley combat is pretty iffy since they play by their own sets of rules. For example, here's a l10 valley I hit today:



    The highest value units are my Archers followed by my Bal. However, their Cavs hit my Swords for whatever reason while their Archers hit my Archers. Both units ignored their priorities (Archers should have hit Ballista since it's the highest range unit present while the Cavs should have hit my Archers being the highest value).

    @Darkbrady:
    Ok, I can buy that.
    I'll run my own small-scale tests concerning Horses later. They are the most fascinating unit to me so I would like to know everything that can go wrong mechanic-wise.
    Last edited by Neokarasu; 11-24-2009 at 05:14 PM.

  10. #400

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    I was answering som's question about priorities. I meant to post your pic as proof but not the text, but alas, my intentions got inverted.
    Besides I'm not sure what your question is, you've already stated that combat begins at base range. Are you arguing with yourself now?

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