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Thread: Key Issues on Combat Mechanics~

  1. #441

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    Well the arch found a way 2 out range, didn't they? Sorry about the error, about min techs.

    Archers can out range ATs, will see if i can do it again.

  2. #442

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    I think I figured out why transporters don't die for anything else but ram attacks.
    They stay wherever the unit the farthest back is on that EXACT range. You know how archers prioritize range units then everything else?
    Well what do they do after that? They prioritize speed. Transporters have higher speed than Rams and Rams are siege, not range. Thus, transporters die.

    If everything else is dead then chances are they just rush in but I don't know.

    So why don't they die on NPC hits? Well ballista and catapults are range units are they not? And everything else is faster thats not a range unit.

    Thats my theory and if you look at all battle reports this should be supported. Also this pretty much confirmed it:
    http://battle16.evony.com/default.html?logfile/20091205/9b/f7/9bf7d8f082c9bfacc5d16ecccbe4eaa9.xml

  3. #443

    Default At's attacked first

    http://battle75.evony.com/default.html?logfile/20091207/8f/1d/8f1d6c43edf99ff3148ccb587583d237.xml

    The at's apparently get attacked first when the abs and/or traps are gone and the battle starts at at's range. Is this because they get a priority target by archers due to range? I always thought it was damagepriority first in this case.

    Secondly, this also implies this to me...

    Archers stand down at city walls when abs/traps are gone..

    Archers march 1 round and stand down when abs/traps are present , why is this?
    Simply because we always see archer losses in those reports and no at losses. If they were standing down at the city walls it would be the same as the report above right?

  4. #444

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadDraw View Post
    http://battle75.evony.com/default.html?logfile/20091207/8f/1d/8f1d6c43edf99ff3148ccb587583d237.xml

    The at's apparently get attacked first when the abs and/or traps are gone and the battle starts at at's range. Is this because they get a priority target by archers due to range? I always thought it was damagepriority first in this case.

    Secondly, this also implies this to me...

    Archers stand down at city walls when abs/traps are gone..

    Archers march 1 round and stand down when abs/traps are present , why is this?
    Simply because we always see archer losses in those reports and no at losses. If they were standing down at the city walls it would be the same as the report above right?
    I don't see what's so confusing.

    As I posted on your other thread, Archers prioritize ATs when they're in range. In the case with 5k range present, the defending Archers have to march out for a couple of rounds since they have nothing to shoot. Therefore the attacking Archers will get in range of the defending Archers before they get in range of the ATs, resulting in defending Archer casualties instead of AT losses.

    Remember that Archers have a "stand and shoot" algorithm so as long as there is something in range to shoot at, they will stand unmoving.

  5. #445
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    Recently did a major attack on someone, lost 100k rams, 200k phracts, a million scouts and archres, but finally succeeding in breaking through.

    My last finishing wave.



    Ballista acting as layering. I had some other fails, ex. 100k rams failling due to a 1 aba/trap triggered built and layers healed a few seconds after my last attack. No report, sadly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ken Deathmarr View Post
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  6. #446
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    Default Variants

    There were some discussions during the last 2-3 weeks which raised the questions in the areas which I counted for myself as well-determined
    I gathered the questions here.


    1. Round flow

    Each round consists of the following steps:
    1) Fortifications (excluding ATs) fight
    2) Killed attacking troops & used fortifications are subtracted
    3) Attacking & defending troops move
    4) Attacking & defending troops (including ATs) fight
    5) Killed attacking & defending troops are subtracted
    6) Attacking troops overcome walls (if applicable)
    Issue: if initial distance is max.range+200 (as everybody agreed), then fortifications can't hit any troop in the 1st round as attacker starts beyond their range.
    There was an idea that steps1/2 should be after step5, so troops fight first, then forts fight. Is it confirmed?


    2. Fortifications damage

    Each round logs&trebs fight one target, but traps/abatis fight multiple targets. Is it right?

    The damage for logs&trebs is defined in Evony, but for traps/abatis it is not. What damage do they cause?

    Target priorities for forts if any (say Trebs prefer Siege as Darkbrady mentioned).


    3. Troops move

    How far does a troop move?
    Variants: troop moves until an opponent appears in range or the full possible step.
    Say my unit has speed 500 and range 100, gap between my unit and enemy unit is 400. How big will be my unit step -- 300 (gap=range) or 400 (gap=0)?


    4. Troops attack

    If a melee unit has a few enemies in range, can it attack the closest unit only or any unit in range?
    Say my unit has range 100, gap between my unit and enemy unit1 is 50, gap between my unit and enemy unit2 is 70. Can my unit attack unit1 only or choose target among unit1 & unit2?


    5. Target priorities

    Darkbrady variant (as I understand it):
    1) Ranged unit rules.
    Ranged units (AT included) prefer ranged ones.
    Among these ranged units the unit having the biggest range is chosen.
    If there are no ranged units in range then follow melee unit rules.
    2) Melee unit rules.
    The unit with most overall value is chosen.
    Overall_value=Unit_amount*Unit_value
    Unit value is a summary of all resources needed for production.

    Birtles variant:
    Quote Originally Posted by Birtles View Post
    Ranged units will prioritise Archers' Towers over everything, in the absence of ATs they prioritise the ranged unit with the highest value - not by range. When targetting melee they prioritise by speed - fastest first.
    Questions:
    1) Melee targeting for ranged units sounds questionable -- why highest value doesn't matter in this case?
    2) What about targeting for melee units?

    213 thought:
    Quote Originally Posted by 213 View Post
    each troop has a a sort of priority or job that they do.
    I understand it as a static list of prioritized list of targets for each troop. Say swords hit archers first, then pikes, then cavalry, etc, disregarding any enemy unit characteristics -- amount, value, speed, ...

    What do you think about it, guys?


    6. Wall bonus to all defending ranged units
    This Darkbrady's idea (+45% in range!) looks to me as too big advantage for defender. Keeping in mind a "stand and shoot" algorithm for archers, it will almost always lead to the situation when defending archers shoot at attacking ones, while the latter shoot at incoming defending melee troops.
    As defending archers usually outnumber attacking ones by a big margin, the archers attack will be useless in this case.

  7. #447

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    Quote Originally Posted by som View Post
    There were some discussions during the last 2-3 weeks which raised the questions in the areas which I counted for myself as well-determined
    I gathered the questions here.


    1. Round flow

    Each round consists of the following steps:
    1) Fortifications (excluding ATs) fight
    2) Killed attacking troops & used fortifications are subtracted
    3) Attacking & defending troops move
    4) Attacking & defending troops (including ATs) fight
    5) Killed attacking & defending troops are subtracted
    6) Attacking troops overcome walls (if applicable)
    Issue: if initial distance is max.range+200 (as everybody agreed), then fortifications can't hit any troop in the 1st round as attacker starts beyond their range.
    There was an idea that steps1/2 should be after step5, so troops fight first, then forts fight. Is it confirmed?
    Fortifications come into play last. I thought this was clear in a couple of posts back from the report of 0 casualty Cav hit on ATs.
    So:
    1. Unit movements. Units with no target in range move according to speed. Highest speed priority and Defending units are prioritized when speed is equal.
    2. Damage phase. Each unit picks a target depending on priority and then assigns damage.
    3. Damage resolved (i.e. casualty phase). Units are subtracted from each cluster.
    4. Fortifications take effect.
    5. Units are subtracted again from fortification damage.

    2. Fortifications damage

    Each round logs&trebs fight one target, but traps/abatis fight multiple targets. Is it right?

    The damage for logs&trebs is defined in Evony, but for traps/abatis it is not. What damage do they cause?

    Target priorities for forts if any (say Trebs prefer Siege as Darkbrady mentioned).
    I'm pretty sure Rocks (Trebs) works under the same mechanics as Traps/Abatis. That is, they are "insta-kill" units that prioritize different things. However, there seems to be a mysterious "miss chance" associated with their mechanic that noone has (cared to) figure out.

    So A/T/Rs trigger at a certain% of their total and kills that many (or less) units every round. The type of units they kill are spread out in some sort of distribution (that again, noone has cared to figure out).

    I'm also pretty iffy on Logs but I think they're just "one-shot" ATs in the fact that they deal massively more damage than ATs (almost 2x) but die after use. I'm not sure if they have a distribution since I haven't bothered to check.

    3. Troops move

    How far does a troop move?
    Variants: troop moves until an opponent appears in range or the full possible step.
    Say my unit has speed 500 and range 100, gap between my unit and enemy unit is 400. How big will be my unit step -- 300 (gap=range) or 400 (gap=0)?
    Melee units move up to their maximum speed until they encounter something in melee range (regardless of their range). You can easily test this by attacking a Valley10 with Cavs in them. If you sent 1 Ballista, 1 Cav, 1 Swords, 1 Pike, bunch of Archers vs x Cavs, your Cav will die first.

    What this signifies is your Cav moved up to point 100 (or 1500 from defender's view) even though the defending Cavs are at that point and Cavs have a range of 100.

    4. Troops attack

    If a melee unit has a few enemies in range, can it attack the closest unit only or any unit in range?
    Say my unit has range 100, gap between my unit and enemy unit1 is 50, gap between my unit and enemy unit2 is 70. Can my unit attack unit1 only or choose target among unit1 & unit2?
    From what I've seen, Cavs have a target nearest priority. Again, the test is very simple like above: hit a Cav-filled Valley with 1 Ballista, 1 Pike, bunch of Archers. Even though Archers are in range after 1 round (1500 + 100), the Cavs will hit the Pike instead because the Pike moved closer to the Cavs.

    I haven't checked any other melee unit because it's harder to create a scenario where there are units in their max range and also melee range, but it seems to make sense that they would all act in that manner.

    5. Target priorities

    Darkbrady variant (as I understand it):
    1) Ranged unit rules.
    Ranged units (AT included) prefer ranged ones.
    Among these ranged units the unit having the biggest range is chosen.
    If there are no ranged units in range then follow melee unit rules.
    2) Melee unit rules.
    The unit with most overall value is chosen.
    Overall_value=Unit_amount*Unit_value
    Unit value is a summary of all resources needed for production.

    Birtles variant:

    Questions:
    1) Melee targeting for ranged units sounds questionable -- why highest value doesn't matter in this case?
    2) What about targeting for melee units?

    213 thought:

    I understand it as a static list of prioritized list of targets for each troop. Say swords hit archers first, then pikes, then cavalry, etc, disregarding any enemy unit characteristics -- amount, value, speed, ...

    What do you think about it, guys?
    Targetting priority isn't something that can be easily generalized.

    So far, ranged units do target melee units by speed. You can easily see this in the fact that Scouts are used to layer a Phract'smack.
    As far as ranged targetting other ranged, targetting by value also seems to be the trend. You can see this in a Valley10 filled with Archers. If you send 1 Ballista and bunch of Archers, they will target the highest value clump (i.e. Archers) before targetting the Ballista which has a higher range.

    Melee priority on the other hand is all kinds of ****ed. There seems to be a systematic targetting system that ignores value for some units while includes values for other. Really, the best thing is just to set-up lots of tests to ascertain each unit's priority (whether it be a "hit list" or "value list"), but I just haven't gotten around to it.

    6. Wall bonus to all defending ranged units
    This Darkbrady's idea (+45% in range!) looks to me as too big advantage for defender. Keeping in mind a "stand and shoot" algorithm for archers, it will almost always lead to the situation when defending archers shoot at attacking ones, while the latter shoot at incoming defending melee troops.
    As defending archers usually outnumber attacking ones by a big margin, the archers attack will be useless in this case.
    Correct.

    That's why at a certain point, Scoutbombs are really a popular method of cracking a defense because cracking a defense with just Archers become impossible after a certain point.

    Here are some defense reports on one of our member:





    As you can see, the attacking Archers are doing minimal damage because the defending Archers get a free round to shoot at them. Even one free round is lethal when the defender is packing that many Archers.
    Last edited by Neokarasu; 12-09-2009 at 03:26 PM.

  8. #448

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    the wall bonus is for every ranged unit then? In that case ballistas and catapults are brutal city defenders.

    However you wrote this in the post above "In the case with 5k range present, the defending Archers have to march out for a couple of rounds since they have nothing to shoot. ". Then the wall bonus should be gone in the reports above right? Isnt this just due to that the defender had higher arch lvl in this case?
    Last edited by DeadDraw; 12-09-2009 at 07:57 PM.

  9. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadDraw View Post
    the wall bonus is for every ranged unit then? In that case ballistas and catapults are brutal city defenders.

    However you wrote this in the post above "In the case with 5k range present, the defending Archers have to march out for a couple of rounds since they have nothing to shoot. ". Then the wall bonus should be gone in the reports above right? Isnt this just due to that the defender had higher arch lvl in this case?
    Wall bonus is always present for the defender.

    Yes, but if you can manage to amass 100k catapults in the city, I'll be surprised. You know how much food those buggers eat? 100k ballista are better. Only 5m per hour compared to 25m.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ken Deathmarr View Post
    Dude, why do you have to act so negative? What's wrong?
    Quote Originally Posted by Endless View Post
    Your a pink unicorn.

  10. #450

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadDraw View Post
    the wall bonus is for every ranged unit then? In that case ballistas and catapults are brutal city defenders.

    However you wrote this in the post above "In the case with 5k range present, the defending Archers have to march out for a couple of rounds since they have nothing to shoot. ". Then the wall bonus should be gone in the reports above right? Isnt this just due to that the defender had higher arch lvl in this case?
    Believe it or not, defending Ranged units retain Wall bonus even when they're not standing on the Wall. So regardless of where they are in the field, as long the Archers are defending, they will get the Wall bonus.

    Just don't compare the game to real life, some things just doesn't work.

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