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Thread: Key Issues on Combat Mechanics~

  1. #451
    Join Date
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    Default The last (hopefully) touch

    Thank you very much for detailed explanations -- precise and clear, covering all points.
    Just a couple of final (hopefully) questions.


    1. Round flow
    Quote Originally Posted by Neokarasu View Post
    Fortifications come into play last. I thought this was clear in a couple of posts back ...
    I read the previous posts about it, I just wanted to get confirmation.


    2. Fortifications damage
    The question was asked for satisfying "scientific" interest, in order to cover all unclear points. The main fortification is AT and as long as it works as a stationery super-archer (Darkbrady ?), the remaining fortifications are usually few and play insignificant role from damage point of view. They define the initial distance though and this is their main purpose as I see it.
    As you fairly mentioned "no one has cared to figure out" the exact damage from autokill units as it is insubstantial.


    3. Troops move
    Quote Originally Posted by Neokarasu View Post
    Melee units move up to their maximum speed until they encounter something in melee range ...
    Questions:
    1) What about ranged units? I assume they move in the same manner (full speed), if "stand&shoot" rule is not applicable (nobody's in range). Am I right?
    2) Who moves first -- attacker or defender? I assume attacker, otherwise attacking cavalry will never have a chance to "jump on" defending layered archers, even if the initial range is not 5000. Please confirm.


    5. Target priorities
    Ok, so the final (?) version looks like this:
    1) Range unit rules.
    Range units (AT included) prefer ranged ones, no matter what (even being attacked by melee unit). Among possible ranged targets the most valuable (summary of all resources for production) one will be chosen. If no ranged units in sight, follow Melee unit rules.
    2) Melee unit rules.
    Choose the closest enemy. Among possible targets (same distance) the most valuable one will be chosen.
    There is some uncertainty in these rules (possibly unit priorities, say swords 'like' pikes), but that is the best that we have for now.
    Am I correct?


    6. Wall bonus to all defending ranged units
    If you are so sure, I can accept it. Especially after such a solid confirmation by archers failure reports.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neokarasu View Post
    Scoutbombs are really a popular method ...
    Well, it works only against offline player though, that decreases its value a lot. Night raids on a sleeping enemy don't seem to be attractive for me.

  2. #452

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    Quote Originally Posted by som View Post
    Thank you very much for detailed explanations -- precise and clear, covering all points.
    You're welcome.

    3. Troops move

    Questions:
    1) What about ranged units? I assume they move in the same manner (full speed), if "stand&shoot" rule is not applicable (nobody's in range). Am I right?
    2) Who moves first -- attacker or defender? I assume attacker, otherwise attacking cavalry will never have a chance to "jump on" defending layered archers, even if the initial range is not 5000. Please confirm.
    1. That is what I assume about ranged units also. I don't think there is a check (or it would be illogical for there to be a check) at every movement point for units in range. What I mean by that is, if an Archer has a speed of 500, it doesn't stop at every point 1-500 to check if there's something in its range. It checks once at the start of the phase for things in range. If this check is negative, then it moves up the full 500 point, then checks again for units in range.
    For melee units, I assume there's a proximity check so units will stop at the same point as an opposing unit instead of bypassing it. Otherwise, layering doesn't work.

    2. In the case of equal speed unit, defender gets the priority. Otherwise, the fastest unit will move first, regardless of side.
    You have to remember that Cavs are faster than almost every other unit so that is why Cavs can run up to Archers before anything else happens. This is also why you want to clear defending Cavs because they will pretty much mess up that priority.

    5. Target priorities
    Ok, so the final (?) version looks like this:
    1) Range unit rules.
    Range units (AT included) prefer ranged ones, no matter what (even being attacked by melee unit). Among possible ranged targets the most valuable (summary of all resources for production) one will be chosen. If no ranged units in sight, follow Melee unit rules.
    2) Melee unit rules.
    Choose the closest enemy. Among possible targets (same distance) the most valuable one will be chosen.
    There is some uncertainty in these rules (possibly unit priorities, say swords 'like' pikes), but that is the best that we have for now.
    Am I correct?
    Not quite.

    Ranged priorities:
    1. ATs
    2. Other ranged units by value.
    3. Melee units by speed.

    Melee priorities:
    1. Closest target.
    2. This is where it gets messed up. Different units appear to have different priorities. Some prioritizes value and some prioritizes by a "hit list"

    6. Wall bonus to all defending ranged units
    If you are so sure, I can accept it. Especially after such a solid confirmation by archers failure reports.

    Well, it works only against offline player though, that decreases its value a lot. Night raids on a sleeping enemy don't seem to be attractive for me.
    There isn't very many things that will work against an online player.
    In fact, i can safely say that you will never win against an online player that knows what they're doing unless you massively out-number him. You have to remember that defense always has the advantage. This is easily seen by the limit put on a Rally Point, the Reinforcement system, and the Wall bonus. To win as an attacker, you're bound to spend more resources than the defending player to win so keep that in mind when planning an attack.

  3. #453

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    Hey Brady, I've got a query for you since you're more experienced in using Logs:

    Is the range for Logs modified by Wall/Archery?

    I saw this report and was wondering why the Logs triggered. The only thing that could've gotten in range is the Archers, in which case they only got to point 3700 by round3, which is much much higher than the Log's range.


  4. #454

    Default

    Evony changed something in the combat mechanics yet again i think?
    i might be wrong, but INT will now affect battle outcomes too!
    Can someone confirm/deny this pls?

  5. #455

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    Quote Originally Posted by Han Solo View Post
    Evony changed something in the combat mechanics yet again i think?
    i might be wrong, but INT will now affect battle outcomes too!
    Can someone confirm/deny this pls?
    It's not really a change if you don't know that piece of information in the first place. Rather than thinking it's a change of game mechanics, people should realize not every piece of the puzzle has been solved. That is, we don't know everything about the game with 100% accuracy.

    And read http://bbs.evony.com/showthread.php?t=84773

  6. #456

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    Quote Originally Posted by som View Post
    Well, it works only against offline player though, that decreases its value a lot. Night raids on a sleeping enemy don't seem to be attractive for me.
    Scout bombs do too work on an online player. You simply have to pincer him.
    Have one full archer layer wave hit at the exact same time as 5 or more scout bombs. Hell have to choose between losing 80k+ or more archers or all of his towers. If your confidant he'll chose to save his towers, simply call of the archer hit at the last second.
    Last edited by lordgarzhad; 12-14-2009 at 12:35 PM.

  7. #457

    Default Massed Pike attack

    I noticed that you do not have any pike battles. Here is a nice one.

    battle3.evony.com/default.html?logfile/20091214/79/b8/79b859d102884ff336ecb6b7d92a74f4.xml


    In this case, I think the key was the traps setting the battle beyond the archery range.

  8. #458

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lordgarzhad View Post
    Scout bombs do too work on an online player. You simply have to pincer him.
    Have one full archer layer wave hit at the exact same time as 5 or more scout bombs. Hell have to choose between losing 80k+ or more archers or all of his towers. If your confidant he'll chose to save his towers, simply call of the archer hit at the last second.
    If the defender is online, he can easily move some of his Archers out such that they won't be targetted by the Scouts while still maintaining the number to crush incoming Archers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jellisanderson View Post
    I noticed that you do not have any pike battles. Here is a nice one.

    battle3.evony.com/default.html?logfile/20091214/79/b8/79b859d102884ff336ecb6b7d92a74f4.xml


    In this case, I think the key was the traps setting the battle beyond the archery range.


    Not bad.
    The Pikes would've killed the Cavs with or without the presence of 5k range setter because the Cavs would've been the first thing it hits regardless. Note that the first 2 rounds are pure movement rounds, i.e. no damage is dealt. Therefore the effective round of this fight is 1, which is exactly the same regardless of 5k range setter.

    That said, layered Archers would have done slightly more damage in this scenario because you are increasing the amount of rounds that the Cavs are taking damage.
    Last edited by Neokarasu; 12-14-2009 at 01:50 PM.
    Key Issues in Combat Mechanics:
    http://bbs.evony.com/showthread.php?t=63051

    Combat Calculator Redux:
    http://bbs.evony.com/showthread.php?t=84773

    Defensive Limitations suggestion:
    http://bbs.evony.com/showthread.php?t=93581
    Support please!

  9. #459
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    Default

    This 'last question' topic seems to another endless story

    3. Troops move
    Quote Originally Posted by Neokarasu View Post
    In the case of equal speed unit, defender gets the priority. Otherwise, the fastest unit will move first, regardless of side.
    I thought troops move goes this way: all attacking troops move, then all defending troops move. This gives an attacker a chance to "jump on" a defender that compensates a little bit all other advantages that a defender have.
    Your idea is that troops move order depends on the speed, so fast troops have move priority. Any confirmations for this?
    You are very good in giving examples, demonstrating your ideas. Please give me an example, supporting 'fast move first' thought.


    5. Target priorities
    Quote Originally Posted by Neokarasu View Post
    Ranged priorities:
    1. ATs
    2. Other ranged units by value.
    3. Melee units by speed.
    Melee priorities:
    1. Closest target.
    2. This is where it gets messed up. Different units appear to have different priorities. Some prioritizes value and some prioritizes by a "hit list"
    Are you saying that ATs are the absolute priority for ranged units, regardless of amount? Say defender has 100 AT and 100k archers, attacking archers will still be firing at ATs, until it dies -- do I understand it right? I can't attach a report right now, but I am pretty sure I had a report where defender suffered losses in ATs & layered archers, although not all ATs & layers had been killed. It means attacking archers shot at defending archers, ignoring ATs.
    Alright, melee prioritization remained a mystery, so I would apply 'the most value' formula to them until further findings.


    Quote Originally Posted by Neokarasu View Post
    There isn't very many things that will work against an online player.
    In fact, i can safely say that you will never win against an online player that knows what they're doing unless you massively out-number him. You have to remember that defense always has the advantage. This is easily seen by the limit put on a Rally Point, the Reinforcement system, and the Wall bonus. To win as an attacker, you're bound to spend more resources than the defending player to win so keep that in mind when planning an attack.
    The whole topic is interesting for me mostly because I am trying to find something in battle tactic to overcome (in some cases) the mentioned advantages. 'Big battalions always win' motto seems to be right, but what is the challenge in collecting 100k rams and throwing them on n00k archers defence, where n=4,5,7,etc? 400k archers -- gather 70k rams, 600k archers -- 90k rams, etc.


    7. Skill modifications
    Thank you for mentioning Combat Calculator topic, because I was going to dismiss my Intels
    May be it is not the best place to discuss skills modifications, but summarizing it briefly (please correct):
    ModifiedAmount for attack/defence/life = Base*(1+Skill/100), where Skill = TechBonus+ItemBonus+HeroBonus. HeroBonus for attack is hero attack, for defence it is hero intelligence.
    HitPoints is the amount of damage, needed for killing 1 unit. HP=Life/(1-Def/1000). Defence close to 1000 gives almost eternal life You mentioned some limit -- Defence can't be more than 500, am I right?
    According to Darkbrady AttDamage=Attack*AttBonusVsDefender*RangeModificat ion and finally DefenderLosses=AttackerAmount*AttDamage/DefenderHP. RoundUp (1.2=2) applies to Losses if attacker is ranged unit and TrimDown (1.8=1) if attacker is melee one.
    Any mistakes in formulas above?

  10. #460

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    Quote Originally Posted by som View Post
    This 'last question' topic seems to another endless story

    3. Troops move

    I thought troops move goes this way: all attacking troops move, then all defending troops move. This gives an attacker a chance to "jump on" a defender that compensates a little bit all other advantages that a defender have.
    Your idea is that troops move order depends on the speed, so fast troops have move priority. Any confirmations for this?
    You are very good in giving examples, demonstrating your ideas. Please give me an example, supporting 'fast move first' thought.
    I would give you an example however my test account's HBR is only 9 so you'd have to wait for it to get to 10 first or it would not show that behavior.
    If you want to test it yourself, it's very easy.

    Test1: attack a defense of 50 Archers, 1 Cav, and 1 Pike with 1 Cav.
    If the 1 Cav kills the other 1 Cav, then you know that the defending Cav moved first. If the 1 Cav killed some of the 50 Archers, then the attacking Cav moved first.

    Test2: remove the 1 Cav from defense and attack with 1 Cav again.
    Since the equal speed unit has been removed from the defending side, the attacking Cav is the first unit that moved. It should kill some Archers (but really, you know this to be true from the myriad of examples around this forum).

    5. Target priorities

    Are you saying that ATs are the absolute priority for ranged units, regardless of amount? Say defender has 100 AT and 100k archers, attacking archers will still be firing at ATs, until it dies -- do I understand it right? I can't attach a report right now, but I am pretty sure I had a report where defender suffered losses in ATs & layered archers, although not all ATs & layers had been killed. It means attacking archers shot at defending archers, ignoring ATs.
    Alright, melee prioritization remained a mystery, so I would apply 'the most value' formula to them until further findings.


    That should be pretty satisfactory

    The whole topic is interesting for me mostly because I am trying to find something in battle tactic to overcome (in some cases) the mentioned advantages. 'Big battalions always win' motto seems to be right, but what is the challenge in collecting 100k rams and throwing them on n00k archers defence, where n=4,5,7,etc? 400k archers -- gather 70k rams, 600k archers -- 90k rams, etc.
    Again, it's impossible because the defender has the advantage to tweak the combat condition in his favor faster than the Attacker can recall and resend. Remember that 1 Trap/Abatis/Rockfall or 1 of whatever layering unit can throw a wrench in that attack that you think would work well. That's why it's generally agreed that an online player is unbreakable if they know what they're doing (and is getting reinforced).
    If it's any consolation, 90% of the player base don't so you might get lucky

    7. Skill modifications
    Thank you for mentioning Combat Calculator topic, because I was going to dismiss my Intels
    May be it is not the best place to discuss skills modifications, but summarizing it briefly (please correct):
    ModifiedAmount for attack/defence/life = Base*(1+Skill/100), where Skill = TechBonus+ItemBonus+HeroBonus. HeroBonus for attack is hero attack, for defence it is hero intelligence.
    HitPoints is the amount of damage, needed for killing 1 unit. HP=Life/(1-Def/1000). Defence close to 1000 gives almost eternal life You mentioned some limit -- Defence can't be more than 500, am I right?
    According to Darkbrady AttDamage=Attack*AttBonusVsDefender*RangeModificat ion and finally DefenderLosses=AttackerAmount*AttDamage/DefenderHP. RoundUp (1.2=2) applies to Losses if attacker is ranged unit and TrimDown (1.8=1) if attacker is melee one.
    Any mistakes in formulas above?
    Oh man, Birtles wrote it out in his thread pretty well but what you wrote is fine (although segmented in an weird way for me :P).
    And yes, the defense cap is 50%. That is, you can't have a modified defense value higher than 500.

    With regards to rounding, I don't think that's correct from something I've noticed recently but I haven't done any extensive testing on it since rounding is pretty irrelevant in the big picture. So my view is, +/- 1 unit is good enough for government work.
    Key Issues in Combat Mechanics:
    http://bbs.evony.com/showthread.php?t=63051

    Combat Calculator Redux:
    http://bbs.evony.com/showthread.php?t=84773

    Defensive Limitations suggestion:
    http://bbs.evony.com/showthread.php?t=93581
    Support please!

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